Minnesota Twins News & Rumors Forum
Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 177

Thread: Sinker: Pirates find Worley's mechanical flaw

  1. #21
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
    Posts
    8,128
    Twitter
    @rocketpig76
    Like
    49
    Liked 1,598 Times in 831 Posts
    Blog Entries
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    How long should I wait? When I asked that question last year, people said 2014/5. I'd bet those same people would now say 2016 before you can judge his work. How long should we wait?

    Should we just accept the awful job of adding players in FA over the last few years? Should we accept they had NO PLAN for CF this year if Hicks didn't work? Should we accept that during a rebuild they use veteran RP with no options left, rather than young players?

    How and when should Ryan be held accountable for the success or failure of this team?

    btw, I'm ok with people saying be patient, but there has to be a timeline for goals, or they are not goals.
    It's hard to have goals when your best two prospects, both likely to see MLB at some point in 2014, go down with injuries early in the season.

    Goals can't be fixed in place, particularly when there are a multitude of variables that are completely out of your control. There is absolutely nothing a team can do when the #1 prospect in baseball goes down for half the season and the #4-6 prospect goes down for the entire season.

    That's just **** luck.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Kirby_Waved_At_Me's Avatar
    Posts
    602
    Like
    62
    Liked 167 Times in 88 Posts
    So, bascially what I'm reading here is that Worley has no control over his own mechanics and only watches video if it's shown to him. He stunk last year, and it's everyone's fault but his own.
    I would like to hear the Twins side of the story. I wouldn't be surprised if getting demoted (twice, to the bullpen, then AAA) and essentially traded for nothing gave him the kick needed to start listening to his coaches a little more closely.
    Maybe it's all true and the Twins coaches didn't look at any video of Worley before his injury. Or they did look at it but couldn't see that there was a difference? Seems pretty hard to believe.

  3. These 5 users like Kirby_Waved_At_Me's post and want to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    big dog (07-07-2014), birdwatcher (07-07-2014), glunn (07-07-2014), Sconnie (07-07-2014), Stan Zbornak (07-08-2014)

  4. #23
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
    Posts
    8,128
    Twitter
    @rocketpig76
    Like
    49
    Liked 1,598 Times in 831 Posts
    Blog Entries
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby_Waved_At_Me View Post
    So, bascially what I'm reading here is that Worley has no control over his own mechanics and only watches video if it's shown to him. He stunk last year, and it's everyone's fault but his own.
    Professional athletes often aren't the brightest of bulbs. Problems like this are why coaching staffs exist in the first place.

    That doesn't absolve Worley of all responsibility; after all, it's his career... But some, probably most, of the blame should be laid at the Twins' pitching coaches, both MLB and AAA.

  5. These 2 users like Brock Beauchamp's post and want to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    adjacent (07-07-2014), glunn (07-07-2014)

  6. #24
    Senior Member MVP
    Posts
    5,718
    Like
    1,159
    Liked 564 Times in 369 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    It's hard to have goals when your best two prospects, both likely to see MLB at some point in 2014, go down with injuries early in the season.

    Goals can't be fixed in place, particularly when there are a multitude of variables that are completely out of your control. There is absolutely nothing a team can do when the #1 prospect in baseball goes down for half the season and the #4-6 prospect goes down for the entire season.

    That's just **** luck.

    and all the other stuff I mentioned? So, you are in the 2016 camp. I have to wait two more years before I can judge him? And if one or two guys get hurt between now and then, does he get two more years?

    At some point, you have to have contingency plans (see CF for two years running now).

    Anderson has his job precisely because this team is about a good old boys club, where almost no one is brought in from the outside to offer a fresh voice. I would imagine group think is rampant in that FO.
    Lighten up Francis....

  7. #25
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Kirby_Waved_At_Me's Avatar
    Posts
    602
    Like
    62
    Liked 167 Times in 88 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Professional athletes often aren't the brightest of bulbs. Problems like this are why coaching staffs exist in the first place.

    That doesn't absolve Worley of all responsibility; after all, it's his career... But some, probably most, of the blame should be laid at the Twins' pitching coaches, both MLB and AAA.
    Nah. I blame Worley.

    http://www.twincities.com/ci_2281220...-hopes-less-is
    "For me, the offseason is a chance for me to actually get back on a normal eating schedule," he said. "During the season, I just get fat. There's nothing I can do."
    - Worley.

    http://www.twincities.com/ci_2306587...s-tuned-up-now
    "It was my mechanics," Worley said. "Things have gone well over there in the bullpen; now it's just a matter of getting it to transfer over to the game."
    - Worley. 4/19/2013

    Apparently Worley did work on his mechanics in 2013, at the request of Anderson, and he still stunk.
    They looked at how he pitched in Philly, tried to get him to go back to that, and he didn't deliver.
    He lost weight after being traded in 2012, but it wasn't enough. He lost more weight this off season, and he's finally starting to come around. Maybe the Twins weren't patient enough with him, but I don't think that he was making much of a good impression on the coaches or the front office here. He wore out his welcome pretty quickly.

    I don't mean to be a defender of the Twins' coaching staff, but I think using Worley's word is not a fair assessment.

  8. These 6 users like Kirby_Waved_At_Me's post and want to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    big dog (07-07-2014), birdwatcher (07-07-2014), Brandon (07-07-2014), glunn (07-07-2014), Sconnie (07-07-2014), Willihammer (07-07-2014)

  9. #26
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    3,609
    Like
    68
    Liked 380 Times in 233 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby_Waved_At_Me View Post
    I don't mean to be a defender of the Twins' coaching staff, but I think using Worley's word is not a fair assessment.
    Is it that you don't think the mechanical adjustment to the flaw is the cause of his success or that you don't think it was the Twins coaching staff's responsibility to identify the flaw?

  10. This user likes nicksaviking's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    glunn (07-07-2014)

  11. #27
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Kirby_Waved_At_Me's Avatar
    Posts
    602
    Like
    62
    Liked 167 Times in 88 Posts
    I think they did identify the flaw in April of 2013, and he didn't make the adjustment.

    Now that he's having some modest success, he's conveniently throwing everyone else under the bus for missing his greatness.

  12. These 2 users like Kirby_Waved_At_Me's post and want to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    Sconnie (07-07-2014), Stan Zbornak (07-08-2014)

  13. #28
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
    Posts
    8,128
    Twitter
    @rocketpig76
    Like
    49
    Liked 1,598 Times in 831 Posts
    Blog Entries
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby_Waved_At_Me View Post
    Nah. I blame Worley.

    http://www.twincities.com/ci_2281220...-hopes-less-is
    "For me, the offseason is a chance for me to actually get back on a normal eating schedule," he said. "During the season, I just get fat. There's nothing I can do."
    - Worley.

    http://www.twincities.com/ci_2306587...s-tuned-up-now
    "It was my mechanics," Worley said. "Things have gone well over there in the bullpen; now it's just a matter of getting it to transfer over to the game."
    - Worley. 4/19/2013

    Apparently Worley did work on his mechanics in 2013, at the request of Anderson, and he still stunk.
    They looked at how he pitched in Philly, tried to get him to go back to that, and he didn't deliver.
    He lost weight after being traded in 2012, but it wasn't enough. He lost more weight this off season, and he's finally starting to come around. Maybe the Twins weren't patient enough with him, but I don't think that he was making much of a good impression on the coaches or the front office here. He wore out his welcome pretty quickly.

    I don't mean to be a defender of the Twins' coaching staff, but I think using Worley's word is not a fair assessment.
    Fair enough. Good catch that the Twins also tried tweaking his mechanics.

  14. These 3 users like Brock Beauchamp's post and want to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    big dog (07-07-2014), birdwatcher (07-07-2014), glunn (07-07-2014)

  15. #29
    Senior Member All-Star Badsmerf's Avatar
    Posts
    1,606
    Like
    21
    Liked 82 Times in 49 Posts
    Blog Entries
    6
    I'm with you all. Blame should be put on the coaching staff, but at the same time Worley is a chump. Anyone who blames the wind for sucking doesn't deserve any respect from me. This guy finds any excuse other than himself. I'm no Anderson fan either. His philosophy and results have been terrible. At some point you have to change directions.

  16. This user likes Badsmerf's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    big dog (07-07-2014)

  17. #30
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Physics Guy's Avatar
    Posts
    610
    Like
    20
    Liked 43 Times in 32 Posts
    Blog Entries
    2
    I know this isn't about Worley, but I think it is pertinent to the thread. What about Nolasco? I know we aren't talking about ace material, but how can he stink so bad? Is Anderson looking at film to discern changes from last year? If there are noticeable changes, are they working to correct them? They have invested too much money in him to not get him straightened out. I've felt that Gardy and Anderson were pretty good at their jobs, but unless we start to see some improvement from the team, maybe it's time for a change in scenery. I'm having a hard time remembering the last pitcher the Twins brought in that actually showed marked improvement with the Twins.

  18. This user likes Physics Guy's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    glunn (07-07-2014)

  19. #31
    Junior Member Rookie
    Posts
    29
    Like
    12
    Liked 24 Times in 10 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    For me the "patient" camp (of which I'm one) is about the players. 2015 has been my target date to start to see the influx of better and younger talent playing for the Twins. I believe the talent level for the Twins is about ready to show up.

    OTOH, it is the management, and mostly coaches, that I believe have (or should have) the shortest leash from here on out. It will be interesting to see how Ryan deals with Gardy and the rest after the season, or even before. Should there not be a change, then I too will lose my current confidence in Ryan.

    The FO has two responsibilities: get the right players and have good staff to get the most out of them. Sometimes it is necessary to concentrate on one vs. the other, but eventually both need to be addressed.

    Maybe that is a discussion for another thread.

  20. This user likes brvama's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    glunn (07-07-2014)

  21. #32
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Kirby_Waved_At_Me's Avatar
    Posts
    602
    Like
    62
    Liked 167 Times in 88 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Fair enough. Good catch that the Twins also tried tweaking his mechanics.
    I don't really fault the Twins for Worley's poor performance with the Twins, nor do I think his success is just the Pirates coaches. I think in both cases, Worley has made his own bed.


    All the Worley stuff aside, I think there are enough examples in which the coaching staff and the front office have stuck with veterans too long out of misplaced loyalty.

    Even Worley was praised by Terry Ryan in the off-season. From the same article in which Worley stated he has no control over his weight, Ryan said that he didn't need to worry about Worley because Worley had been in the league for 2 years...

  22. #33

    People aren't so 'mechanical'

    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    I think Anderson is to Gardy as Such was to Kelly. Not sure what the results will be. I could see this being an Ulger situation where Anderson is still retained in a different capacity and a new pitching coach is brought in. That's not a bad option if Anderson is retained in a way that maximizes his strengths...

    That said, gotta echo Brock here. If a pitching coach cannot spot a mechanical flaw, he needs to be replaced.

    I don't really agree with that last sentence there. I'm not sure how you think pitching works, but there's not one right way to throw a baseball. Yes, there are good and better ways, especially depending on how you're built what you're trying to accomplish, but it's not like there's certain definable mechanical flaws in pitching that can just be "found" in the way that you find a bad spark plug something. You may see what you perceive to be an ineffieciency or a tweak to be made, but you have to realize that with every small change comes others when you're talking about a complicated, fast, coordinated motion that utilizes so many different parts of your body.

    I'm by no means a huge Rick Anderson fan, and I wasn't all that happy about how the FO handled the Worley thing (mostly because of the cost to acquire him, more so than thinking he was very good). However, let's not sit here and pretend one starting pitcher doing better for a small stretch, in the NL no less, is some damning indictment on our coaching staff. Some guys just don't pan out in certain situations.

    Phil Hughes.

  23. This user likes KTryan's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    glunn (07-07-2014)

  24. #34
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
    Posts
    2,783
    Like
    666
    Liked 384 Times in 214 Posts
    Blog Entries
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby_Waved_At_Me View Post
    Nah. I blame Worley.

    http://www.twincities.com/ci_2281220...-hopes-less-is
    "For me, the offseason is a chance for me to actually get back on a normal eating schedule," he said. "During the season, I just get fat. There's nothing I can do."
    - Worley.

    http://www.twincities.com/ci_2306587...s-tuned-up-now
    "It was my mechanics," Worley said. "Things have gone well over there in the bullpen; now it's just a matter of getting it to transfer over to the game."
    - Worley. 4/19/2013

    Apparently Worley did work on his mechanics in 2013, at the request of Anderson, and he still stunk.
    They looked at how he pitched in Philly, tried to get him to go back to that, and he didn't deliver.
    He lost weight after being traded in 2012, but it wasn't enough. He lost more weight this off season, and he's finally starting to come around. Maybe the Twins weren't patient enough with him, but I don't think that he was making much of a good impression on the coaches or the front office here. He wore out his welcome pretty quickly.

    I don't mean to be a defender of the Twins' coaching staff, but I think using Worley's word is not a fair assessment.
    Yeah, we have heard this before. Normally I wouldn't miss a chance to rip the FO but people are having a little too much fun with a 4 start sample.

    edit:

    Marlins
    Cubs
    Mets
    D-backs
    Last edited by Willihammer; 07-07-2014 at 10:53 AM.

  25. #35
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Kirby_Waved_At_Me's Avatar
    Posts
    602
    Like
    62
    Liked 167 Times in 88 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Physics Guy View Post
    I know this isn't about Worley, but I think it is pertinent to the thread. What about Nolasco? I know we aren't talking about ace material, but how can he stink so bad? Is Anderson looking at film to discern changes from last year? If there are noticeable changes, are they working to correct them? They have invested too much money in him to not get him straightened out. I've felt that Gardy and Anderson were pretty good at their jobs, but unless we start to see some improvement from the team, maybe it's time for a change in scenery. I'm having a hard time remembering the last pitcher the Twins brought in that actually showed marked improvement with the Twins.
    It might be a good idea, assuming the Twins are going to stick with Ryan/Gardy/Anderson until they quit on their own, to have some interview/face time with the coaches before acquiring a player. I wonder if they do that.

    This next bit is probably completely unfair to Nolasco, but he gives the impression that he isn't very easy to coach. That he might be resistant to changing his mechanics or approach. Again, not really fair and I don't know if its true or not, but the impression I'm getting is the coaches and Nolasco might not be on the same page right now.

    So, if that's the case here - maybe it was same thing with guys like Garza, Lohse, Liriano, and Worley - what do the Twins do about it? Is there someone in HR that can have a team-building exercise for these guys?

  26. #36
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
    Posts
    8,128
    Twitter
    @rocketpig76
    Like
    49
    Liked 1,598 Times in 831 Posts
    Blog Entries
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by KTryan View Post
    I'm by no means a huge Rick Anderson fan, and I wasn't all that happy about how the FO handled the Worley thing (mostly because of the cost to acquire him, more so than thinking he was very good).
    Revere has been all sorts of terrible for the Phillies.

  27. This user likes Brock Beauchamp's post and wants to buy him/her a steak dinner:

    glunn (07-07-2014)

  28. #37
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
    Posts
    1,955
    Like
    257
    Liked 207 Times in 116 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby_Waved_At_Me View Post
    I don't mean to be a defender of the Twins' coaching staff, but I think using Worley's word is not a fair assessment.
    This. I think that helping of waiver-wire pie probably allowed for Worley to take reassessing his mechanics more seriously.

    The Twins have gotten miles of out junkball pitchers (too many miles that it left the FO office arrogant, imo); sometimes the coaching tactics and personality will jive with a player and sometimes it won't. I don't think one coaching staff success (Pittsburg's) should necessarily be an indictment of another staff. Good for Worley though, I hope it lasts.

  29. #38
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
    Posts
    1,955
    Like
    257
    Liked 207 Times in 116 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby_Waved_At_Me View Post
    This next bit is probably completely unfair to Nolasco, but he gives the impression that he isn't very easy to coach. That he might be resistant to changing his mechanics or approach. Again, not really fair and I don't know if its true or not, but the impression I'm getting is the coaches and Nolasco might not be on the same page right now.
    Nolasco isn't quite as bad as his numbers. His BABIP is .362, fifty points higher than his career. His xFIP is a non awful 4.15. However, he is allowing about 50% more homeruns and striking out one batter less per nine innings, and those aren't positive trends when combined with bad luck.

  30. #39
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Twins Twerp's Avatar
    Posts
    782
    Like
    38
    Liked 110 Times in 70 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Physics Guy View Post
    I know this isn't about Worley, but I think it is pertinent to the thread. What about Nolasco? I know we aren't talking about ace material, but how can he stink so bad? Is Anderson looking at film to discern changes from last year? If there are noticeable changes, are they working to correct them? They have invested too much money in him to not get him straightened out. I've felt that Gardy and Anderson were pretty good at their jobs, but unless we start to see some improvement from the team, maybe it's time for a change in scenery. I'm having a hard time remembering the last pitcher the Twins brought in that actually showed marked improvement with the Twins.
    Phil Hughes? Can we really be that negative to onlysee the bad? How about Johan Santana? He seemed to turn out ok under Rick Anderson.

    The Twins were in rebuild mode and still remain in rebuild mode. You have to find a few players every year who can be long term answers. I would venture to say we have found some staples this year. Dozier is the second baseman for next half decade. Hughes and gibson are pretty good mid rotation guys. May and Meyer are on the brink of showing what they can do. Pinto looks like at the very least he can smash. Oswaldo is here to stay if he can cut his k's a little. CF to me is a mute point. Buxton will be the CF by mid season next year. I think hicks can still contribute and at least be a 4th OF (remember Span took longer to cook and was given up on by most). SS looks like we finally have some talent coming up.

    I like our rebuild much more than teams like Chicago and Houston. The storm is coming. If you arent patient for a baseball rebuild...stop watching baseball.

  31. #40
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
    Posts
    2,272
    Like
    241
    Liked 464 Times in 291 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    When Worley was traded, I said something along the lines of "if Vance comes back with the Pirates, Anderson needs to be fired."

    I've followed the Twins for a long time. This may be the most damning evidence of coaching incompetence that I've seen during that time.

    Unbelievable.

    With Liriano, you could make the argument "that's just Francisco being Francisco" and sure enough, he imploded again in 2014. He's just an enigma; I can't blame or praise any coaching staff for how that guy performs.

    But missing a mechanical issue with a pitcher who went from promising to garbage almost overnight? Unacceptable. Completely unacceptable.
    Between Worley and Nolasco, Anderson should be fired. One season is not enough, but this is a well-established pattern. Garza is probably the best example of how to screw up a promising pitcher.
    Last edited by cmathewson; 07-07-2014 at 11:04 AM.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
©2014 TwinsCentric, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Interested in advertising with Twins Daily? Click here.