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Thread: Sinker: Pirates find Worley's mechanical flaw

  1. #81
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    Here is my two cents. I am not a Rick Anderson fan. If we wanted to list players that were better elsewhere versus here, I think the better elsewhere list would be longer.

    In any event, let's wait to chalk up Worley as an Anderson failure and lets see how sustainable this is. He had a 4.30 ERA in AAA this year and has pitched a total of 27 innings with the Pirates. In those 27 IP, he has left 87.7% of his runners on base and has a .225 BABIP. His K's per 9 of 5.9 is better than his number in the mid 4's here, but this is not screaming nanny nanny boo boo.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    Right. The choice doesn't really make sense. So there must have been some sort of impasse. If we accept that not all coaches can work with all players, and we realize Worley isn't going to figure it out under Anderson, do we still simply hold onto Worley so other teams can't have him? Maybe Anderson is part of the problem, but the Worley situation is a murky indictment of his coaching prowess.

    Look, I get that it kind of sucks that Worley goes on to be successful; it's bittersweet. For every Worley who goes onto succeed (after four games), there's a Slowey who is exactly what the Twins thought he was, and utilized his best years.

    In fact, I remember similar arguments about Anderson and the Twins giving up on players emerging when Slowey had a short run of success a couple years ago.
    Slowey was taking a 40-man roster spot and was due to be paid $2.75 million. If you think he's a longshot for MLB success, and you've had 6 years to work with him, then I generally support trading him (particularly if you can get a cheap, non-roster player in return).

    Worley was already off the 40-man roster and was making the league minimum salary. And the Twins gave up on him, for nothing in return... due to "irreconcilable differences" after one year? They had a free year to send him to the minors and together work toward the mutual goal of winning him his first arbitration payday, just like the Pirates are doing now.

    I get that not even the best coaches will see eye to eye with every player, and it's not necessarily any great shame to send such players on to other pastures, but the Twins seemed awfully quick to dump the malcontent here, particularly for a team in their position (i.e. rebuilding, with a league worst starting staff).

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    The Twins traded Worely because he was going to be buried here at AAA and be so far down the depth chart that it was addition by subtraction for us.
    That seems like a way overconfident move by a team with the worst MLB starting staff in 2013.

    The best spin might be that a few days after dumping Worley, Diamond accepted an assignment to AAA -- maybe he wouldn't have accepted if the Twins had another MLB veteran arm potentially above him on the depth chart. But, I think Worley was ticketed for the AAA bullpen at the time of his demotion anyway, and he could have easily gone to AA or extended spring training (he didn't make his Pirates minor league debut until May 6). And keeping Diamond's 6.45 AAA ERA wasn't exactly a "win" for the front office either.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    btw, I'm ok with people saying be patient, but there has to be a timeline for goals, or they are not goals.
    S.M.A.R.T. Goals.

    Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, and Time Sensative.

    We have had none of the above.

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  6. #85
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    What did we get for Craig Breslow?

    Not that he's been fabulous but he was serviceable for the A's and then for the Red Sox (horrible year this year).

    Isn't he another one where the personality issue seemed strong?

    I'm not saying the Twins should have kept him ... just seemed to be in the same category as Worley (although reliever vs. starter is very different).

  7. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    What did we get for Craig Breslow?
    Nothing, he was outright released. A's picked him up for nothing.

  8. #87
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Theo Epstein signed with the Cubs within a month of Ryan's return.

    Theo's record with the Cubs: 165-245

    Ryan's record with the Twins: 171-240

    If Terry Ryan should be fired, Theo Epstein should be super-duper double fired.

    Or maybe it just takes time to rebuild a franchise when you're doing it through the farm and draft.

    Three years of rebuilding, and Epstein has put together a roster with 3 players over 30, and and the 6th youngest in baseball.

    Three years of rebuilding, and Ryan has put together a roster with 11 players over 30, and the 6th oldest in baseball.

    The quantity of young players on the MLB roster is clearly a lesser measure of the progress of a rebuilding effort than the quality of the prospects acquired and developed. But it certainly warrants consideration when comparing the two GM's.

    And the Cubs are consistently ranked just behind the Twins among the top five farm systems in baseball. That was before the injuries to Sano and Buxton, and before Epstein acquired one of the top-ranked shortstop prospects in the minors, along with the OF the A's took in the first round last year, and a 25 year old starter with 190 K's in 230 MLB innings.

  9. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    What did we get for Craig Breslow?

    Not that he's been fabulous but he was serviceable for the A's and then for the Red Sox (horrible year this year).

    Isn't he another one where the personality issue seemed strong?

    I'm not saying the Twins should have kept him ... just seemed to be in the same category as Worley (although reliever vs. starter is very different).
    The dreaded control problem. They tried to sneak him through waivers so he could work on the control in Rochester. Didn't work out as planned. His replacement was Sean Henn, who didn't work out as planned.

  10. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    Three years of rebuilding, and Epstein has put together a roster with 3 players over 30, and and the 6th youngest in baseball.

    Three years of rebuilding, and Ryan has put together a roster with 11 players over 30, and the 6th oldest in baseball.

    The quantity of young players on the MLB roster is clearly a lesser measure of the progress of a rebuilding effort than the quality of the prospects acquired and developed. But it certainly warrants consideration when comparing the two GM's.

    And the Cubs are consistently ranked just behind the Twins among the top five farm systems in baseball. That was before the injuries to Sano and Buxton, and before Epstein acquired one of the top-ranked shortstop prospects in the minors, along with the OF the A's took in the first round last year, and a 25 year old starter with 190 K's in 230 MLB innings.
    Epstien has a nice roster. Still losing. They will be losing more as they dealt 2 of their top starters.
    The ballplayers over 30 likely to be with the club next year are Nolasco, Perkins and Mauer. Fien and Pelfrey remain to be seen.
    For the long term of the club, the continued emphasis on the average age of the club is meaningless. If Hicks could hit, there would be no Sam Fuld. If Tonkin pitched better there would not be Guerrier. Numerous under 30 players have had a chance to work out They did not. You grab what you can find. That would be older players. There is no intent to build with them, only to field as competitive team as possible for this year.
    Last edited by old nurse; 07-07-2014 at 05:00 PM.

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  12. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    If Hicks could hit, there would be no Sam Fuld. If Tonkin pitched better there would not be Guerrier. Numerous under 30 players have had a chance to work out They did not.
    Many of the over 30 guys haven't either. What is meaningful about the age of the roster is that it gives an indication of how many players on the roster are part of the future which can give an idea of how close the future might be.

    Not always, but it's meaningful. Many young guys have not contributed. The roster average age of 30, boosted by a bunch of old guys not part of the future, has done nothing but lose 90 games for several seasons and likely another. Why be old and not very good if you're looking to the future? That's not meaningless.

  13. #91
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    Fwiw, my guess is that Anderson's failures have outweighed his successes, subjective though that guess may be. That being said, Worley's early success needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

    In addition to the small sample size, his opponent babip is nearly 100 points below his career average, and his strand rate has been nearly 15% above his average. Even allowing for the good luck, though, his fip and xfip remain below 4.

    Too early to call Worley another Anderson whiff, but it's not looking good for RA on this one.

  14. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Fair enough. Good catch that the Twins also tried tweaking his mechanics.
    But did they tweak them to how they were when he was successful or did they tweak them to add more sink?

  15. #93
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    Three years of rebuilding, and Epstein has put together a roster with 3 players over 30, and and the 6th youngest in baseball.

    Three years of rebuilding, and Ryan has put together a roster with 11 players over 30, and the 6th oldest in baseball.

    The quantity of young players on the MLB roster is clearly a lesser measure of the progress of a rebuilding effort than the quality of the prospects acquired and developed. But it certainly warrants consideration when comparing the two GM's.

    And the Cubs are consistently ranked just behind the Twins among the top five farm systems in baseball. That was before the injuries to Sano and Buxton, and before Epstein acquired one of the top-ranked shortstop prospects in the minors, along with the OF the A's took in the first round last year, and a 25 year old starter with 190 K's in 230 MLB innings.
    Both teams are bad. Both teams have a top three farm system. Both Epstein and Ryan took the job at roughly the same time. Beyond that, it's picking nits. If the Cubs are better much quicker than the Twins, then you have an argument to hang your hat on. Until that happens, the two teams are roughly neck-and-neck.

    My point is that people expect everything to change overnight and the rebuild process to start instantaneously. That doesn't happen. It doesn't happen with Ryan's teams, it doesn't happen with Beane's teams, it doesn't happen with Epstein's teams.

    Teams cannot be built from the ground up in two seasons. It just doesn't happen. Like many others, I'd like to see a few younger players on the Twins right now but I can't fault Ryan for injuries to the likes of Sano or Buxton or the recent falterings of Meyer. This roster would look vastly different if Sano was manning third and Meyer was taking the hill alongside Gibson and Hughes every fifth day.

  16. #94
    Senior Member All-Star Sconnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    It's worse than that -- Worley was already off the 40-man roster, having cleared waivers and been outrighted to AAA. As jorgen mentioned upthread, when the Twins sold him, the debate was more like Worley vs. Virgil Vasquez.
    I think this proves K.W.A.M.'s point. As little respect as I have for the FO, they give up on no asset that might have a smidgen of trade value. Worley wasn't on the 40, they received a little cash for him and no talent. I'm sure the cash was small consolation.
    "If I knew the world would end tomorrow, I would still plant a tree today."

  17. #95
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jharaldson View Post
    Nothing, he was outright released. A's picked him up for nothing.
    Close. Breslow was claimed when DFAed. The Twins were trying to outright him to Rochester.

  18. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Numerous under 30 players have had a chance to work out They did not. You grab what you can find. That would be older players. There is no intent to build with them, only to field as competitive team as possible for this year.
    if you are committed to rebuilding, you give the young guys a chance despite failure. If you don't intend for a player to last longer than one season, you don't have your undivided attention on the ultimate prize. The TR quote "why not us, why not now" speaks volumes about where TR thinks this team is going, and that appears to be down the same path they have been going over the last three terrible seasons.

    What does age tell you about the team? It tells you how committed to the future they are.
    "If I knew the world would end tomorrow, I would still plant a tree today."

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  20. #97
    The Twins believed in Nolasco instead. And, let's see... his ERA is up to 5.90 now. Once again we find the Twins' flaw. They are making huge mistakes when evaluating talent. They could have kept Worley at AAA but kept Diamond instead. And, they are stuck with Nolasco for what? 3 more years of getting pounded? Not to mention a $23 million dollar first baseman who's skills have diminished. Did they really think he was going to catch until he was 35?

  21. #98
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    IMHO the manager and pitching coach are on a shorter leash than ever before. The coaching staff was all reshuffled last year with Gardenhire saying if Anderson is gone he is gone. (Am I the only one that remembers that? I do not have a source to back me... Yet)
    Molitor was added to the staff. I would not be surprised to see Anderson "shuffled" after the all star break. I do not think the FO wants to do anything with the impending all star break at Target Field and Gardy one of the coaches but there may be a dust up after the All Star Game with trades and possibly coaching changes

  22. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post

    My point is that people expect everything to change overnight and the rebuild process to start instantaneously. That doesn't happen. It doesn't happen with Ryan's teams, it doesn't happen with Beane's teams, it doesn't happen with Epstein's teams.

    Teams cannot be built from the ground up in two seasons. It just doesn't happen. Like many others, I'd like to see a few younger players on the Twins right now but I can't fault Ryan for injuries to the likes of Sano or Buxton or the recent falterings of Meyer. This roster would look vastly different if Sano was manning third and Meyer was taking the hill alongside Gibson and Hughes every fifth day.
    With all due respect, what are you talking about, BroBeau? Straw. Man.

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  24. #100
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    Well, it sounds as though the flaw in Nolasco's delivery may have been injury. Anderson may get a pass on this one. It sounds as though Nolasco may have been concealing it also.

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