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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I think Meyer was on the cusp of being promoted but then he scuffled every other start in June. He'd post a good or decent start and then he'd follow it up with a short, bad start.

    He has now posted three consecutive good starts so I think he's back to the point where the Twins should consider promoting him.
    I think you are right, but I will take some inconsistency. I mean look at the guys he will likely replace, every single one has been inconsistent this year outside of Hughes. From this point to when he hits his innings limit the goal should be to let him face MLB hitters and see how his stuff matches up and what Gibson-like adjustments he needs to make.

    I would rather get that out of the way with this year rather than in 2015.

    He has the most talent at AAA, bar none and his minor numbers look like a video game (3.06 ERA and 10.4K per 9). He will be 25 in spring training next year.

    And, more importantly. I told my friend to draft him and stash him for his fantasy league and I am getting sick of him giving me a hard time about it!
    Last edited by tobi0040; 07-09-2014 at 08:47 AM.

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  3. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    And none of those guys are ready. I thought May was ready and it looked like he'd get the call but he went down with an injury. Meyer scuffled for a couple of weeks, which surely sent his time table back a bit. Hopefully we'll see both of them in Minnesota soon.
    Pino was called up before May got injured, and I'm not really convinced it was just fluke bad timing -- they could have easily worked May into the rotation anytime over the prior month. May was on the 40-man and performing great at AAA and they were already futzing around with Deduno -- Pino was just an extension of that, not a one-start patch.

    Meyer scuffling a couple weeks set back his time table? Every player scuffles for a few weeks here and there -- heck, we've had a few scufflers on the MLB roster most of the season. That really shouldn't throw off an otherwise healthy, successful, not-young prospect's promotion by 2-3 months or more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    So ultimately, does it really matter if Correia is pitching when the team feels Meyer isn't yet ready? I'd argue that it really doesn't.... What matters is whether the team is willing to discard Correia the moment they feel Meyer is ready.
    I for one don't want to see Correia discarded just to open a spot -- we've already got one wide-open rotation spot (Deduno/Pino) and perhaps another with Nolasco's injury. In fact, this is an ideal time to break in a starting prospect, because you've already got guys like Correia under contract and on the roster to fall back on. Heck, they could even go to a 6-man rotation for awhile and they wouldn't have to worry about turns lining up etc. -- if a guy gets hurt or scuffles a bit, just skip his turn, work him out of the pen for a game, etc.

    Waiting until September or heaven forbid next March to let Meyer and May face MLB hitters seems like a terrible idea. With no idea of whether they can claim a rotation spot next spring, you will either be forced to re-sign Correia/Pelfrey types, or dramatically increase your risk of a 2012-2013 style rotation disaster. And for what gain? We get to take a closer look at Deduno for the third time, or whatever AAAA starter du jour?
    Last edited by spycake; 07-09-2014 at 08:57 AM.

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  5. #143
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    spycake just saved me a lot of time, by typing up what I'd say.

    Get their feet wet this year. Waiting another year? I don't get the process at all here.
    Lighten up Francis....

  6. #144
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    [QUOTE=spycake;253447]Pino was called up before May got injured, and I'm not really convinced it was just fluke bad timing -- they could have easily worked May into the rotation anytime over the prior month. QUOTE]

    Back to my friend (neighbor too) and me telling him to draft Meyer....this Pino thing is the type of thing I have had to hear every time I go outside. Bail me out Twins. Promote the guy.

  7. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Pino was called up before May got injured, and I'm not really convinced it was just fluke bad timing -- they could have easily worked May into the rotation anytime over the prior month.

    Meyer scuffling a couple weeks set back his time table? Every player scuffles for a few weeks here and there -- heck, we've had a few scufflers on the MLB roster most of the season. That really shouldn't throw off an otherwise healthy, successful, not-young prospect's promotion by 2-3 months or more.



    I for one don't want to see Correia discarded just to open a spot -- we've already got one wide-open rotation spot (Deduno/Pino) and perhaps another with Nolasco's injury. In fact, this is an ideal time to break in a starting prospect, because you've already got guys like Correia under contract and on the roster to fall back on. Heck, they could even go to a 6-man rotation for awhile and they wouldn't have to worry about turns lining up etc. -- if a guy gets hurt or scuffles a bit, just skip his turn, work him out of the pen for a game, etc.

    Waiting until September or heaven forbid next March to let Meyer and May face MLB hitters seems like a terrible idea. With no idea of whether they can claim a rotation spot next spring, you will either be forced to re-sign Correia/Pelfrey types, or dramatically increase your risk of a 2012-2013 style rotation disaster. And for what gain? We get to take a closer look at Deduno for the third time, or whatever AAAA starter du jour?
    Earlier in the season, Antony set a high bar to exceed and a wide gulf to cross, specifically for Meyer- his comments offered little hope that he would be called up any time soon- barring unforseen events, I posted at the time that it appeared the Twins would be fine if they held off on Meyer until some time in 2015- and now LEN3 seems to confirm that this may be the case. By contrast, for May, the Twins have not offered similar public rationales for why, or why not, he was yet to get the call.

    But again, actions on the part of the Twins should mean something. The Twins were quick to appoint May to the Futures Game squad when a spot became available (only a day after the initial rosters were set), and this came on the heels of the 120-pitch Trevor May effort on June 16. Before May sustained the injury, it seems likely that he was going to get the first shot at an open spot on the 25-man roster after the All Star break (presumably Correia). Presumably, his timetable has been set back slightly, but I still gotta think he's going to get a "tryout", either in one of Nolasco's starts or for Correia's, once KC is jettisoned.

  8. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    But again, actions on the part of the Twins should mean something. The Twins were quick to appoint May to the Futures Game squad when a spot became available (only a day after the initial rosters were set), and this came on the heels of the 120-pitch Trevor May effort on June 16. Before May sustained the injury, it seems likely that he was going to get the first shot at an open spot on the 25-man roster after the All Star break (presumably Correia). Presumably, his timetable has been set back slightly, but I still gotta think he's going to get a "tryout", either in one of Nolasco's starts or for Correia's, once KC is jettisoned.
    Good point on the Futures Game assignment -- I forgot about that. That makes it pretty clear May was ticketed for roughly an August debut at best regardless of his injury. That wouldn't be a terrible timeline (I try to take a long-range view and not quibble about a few weeks in such matters), but still involves a wasted month or two while we do our annual "figure out what we have in these AAAA guys" dance. If May is pushed back further to September or next spring, that would be terrible.

    The Meyer situation is near that level too -- probably the only saving grace is that yes, I want his innings limited a bit this year. But I'd like to see SOME of those innings at the MLB level -- we're beyond the point where age, arbitration, FA, options, or even AAA performance are much of a factor with this guy anymore. (And at least one roster spot should be freely available after Florimon's recent appearance.)

    When was the last time a Twins pitcher made his MLB debut in the season-opening starting rotation? Eric Milton? It has been pretty rare. Get their feet wet now so there's a chance they can do it, or at least you can inform your offseason decisions.

  9. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Good point on the Futures Game assignment -- I forgot about that. That makes it pretty clear May was ticketed for roughly an August debut at best regardless of his injury. That wouldn't be a terrible timeline (I try to take a long-range view and not quibble about a few weeks in such matters), but still involves a wasted month or two while we do our annual "figure out what we have in these AAAA guys" dance. If May is pushed back further to September or next spring, that would be terrible.

    The Meyer situation is near that level too -- probably the only saving grace is that yes, I want his innings limited a bit this year. But I'd like to see SOME of those innings at the MLB level -- we're beyond the point where age, arbitration, FA, options, or even AAA performance are much of a factor with this guy anymore. (And at least one roster spot should be freely available after Florimon's recent appearance.)

    When was the last time a Twins pitcher made his MLB debut in the season-opening starting rotation? Eric Milton? It has been pretty rare. Get their feet wet now so there's a chance they can do it, or at least you can inform your offseason decisions.
    The issue with waiting until next year with Meyer is three fold.

    1) Based on talent, ceiling, age, numbers, he should be up this year and it is nearly impossible to refute that.

    2) He is getting his feet wet a year later than he should and when we should be turning the corner, or at least seeing what we have in our top prospects. He could come up in 2015, then go back to work on x and y and you are potentially talking about 2016

    3) If Meyer is not up this year or gets 1-2 starts in September, he is a guy that is now in competition for a role in 2015 out of spring training. The Twins, IMO would consider pushing him back to June 2015. It would just be 2 months. Any minor injury, slightly higher BB's, struggling in spring training could be used as an excuse to delay him.

  10. #148
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    I want Meyer up in September but I'm fine with it being in the bullpen to limit his innings.

  11. #149
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    The Meyer and may situations are the types of issues I have with the twins promotions. Neither are young and both need to be a part of the next good twins team. Delaying their mlb appearance just delays their whole timetable. Gibson last year is another example. No matter what there is an adjustment period. If you ruin a 25 year old guy by calling him up you have bigger problems. I just hate this approach by the twins. There is no reason to wait this long, especially when you're giving stats top deduno and pino. This is bull****.

  12. #150
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    I didn't have a problem giving Pino the starts when the call came. May had just pitched that long game and wasn't available, and Meyer wasn't pitching well in AAA. That said, I suspect May is the next guy getting the call for extended action and would be surprised if he's not replacing Pino or Nolaso after the all star break.

    I don't expect to see Meyer until September, and in a relief role at that. He's on a strict limit, and I think it's in the Twins best interest to let him do that at the minor league level. He's also not on the 40 man. He will have to be added this offseason, so a September move to give him a month of MLB relief work would be wise.

  13. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobi0040 View Post
    I think you are right, but I will take some inconsistency. I mean look at the guys he will likely replace, every single one has been inconsistent this year outside of Hughes. From this point to when he hits his innings limit the goal should be to let him face MLB hitters and see how his stuff matches up and what Gibson-like adjustments he needs to make.

    I would rather get that out of the way with this year rather than in 2015.

    He has the most talent at AAA, bar none and his minor numbers look like a video game (3.06 ERA and 10.4K per 9). He will be 25 in spring training next year.

    And, more importantly. I told my friend to draft him and stash him for his fantasy league and I am getting sick of him giving me a hard time about it!
    But there's a difference between Meyer's "inconsistency" versus "holy crap, he's pretty bad right now". Over the course of ten days, he had two starts where he went under four innings and gave up at least three runs.

  14. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Pino was called up before May got injured, and I'm not really convinced it was just fluke bad timing -- they could have easily worked May into the rotation anytime over the prior month. May was on the 40-man and performing great at AAA and they were already futzing around with Deduno -- Pino was just an extension of that, not a one-start patch.
    May didn't line up with the Twins' rotation in mid-June and then he got injured. I think May is in Minnesota pitching every fifth day right now if not for the injury. After all, the Twins sent Pino back down immediately after his second start. That's a pretty good indication they had other plans.

    Pino pitched on 6/19. May was hurt on 6/21 but it initially seemed minor and a quick bounce-back was expected. Pino was demoted on 6/26 after his second start. May was put on the DL on 6/27. Pino was recalled a few days afterward.

    I think that series of events pretty clearly indicates that the Twins were planning on calling up May but his injury got in the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Meyer scuffling a couple weeks set back his time table? Every player scuffles for a few weeks here and there -- heck, we've had a few scufflers on the MLB roster most of the season. That really shouldn't throw off an otherwise healthy, successful, not-young prospect's promotion by 2-3 months or more.
    Meyer was pretty bad. There was talk that he was injured. He went less than four innings in multiple starts. That's not the guy you call up to make his MLB debut. It's hard to fault the Twins for reconsidering their time tables when a guy is awful every other start.

  15. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Pino pitched on 6/19. May was hurt on 6/21 but it initially seemed minor and a quick bounce-back was expected. Pino was demoted on 6/26 after his second start. May was put on the DL on 6/27. Pino was recalled a few days afterward.

    I think that series of events pretty clearly indicates that the Twins were planning on calling up May but his injury got in the way.
    You omit that June 25, the Twins named Trevor May to start the upcoming Futures Game on July 13. Seems a weird thing to do if you're planning to promote him within the week.

    It certainly is possible that they had May in mind for a promotion sooner, but I don't think that's clear from the above timeline, or from their previous actions (May could have safely been lined up with Deduno as early as late May), or from their 2013 promotion timings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Meyer was pretty bad. There was talk that he was injured. He went less than four innings in multiple starts. That's not the guy you call up to get his MLB cup of coffee. It's hard to fault the Twins for reconsidering their time tables when a guy is awful every other start.
    Meyer certainly scuffled, but it looks a lot worse because of his pitch count limitations. Here is the 3 start span in question:

    2 IP, 5 H, 3 R, 2 BB, 1 K, 55 pitches
    3 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 2 BB, 4 K, 78 pitches
    3.2 IP, 7 H, 4 R, 2 BB, 3 K, 73 pitches

    Without the pitch count restrictions, he probably logs a not-disastrous 5 inning "Deduno special" in at least 1, if not 2 or perhaps even all 3 of those games. If that's his downside, that's not bad. (Deduno's problem is those games appear to his upside.)

    And that so-called "awful" stretch was bookended by 6 IP, 0-1 R, 7-8 K, ~80 pitch games.

  16. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    May didn't line up with the Twins' rotation in mid-June and then he got injured. I think May is in Minnesota pitching every fifth day right now if not for the injury.
    Pino pitched on 6/19. May was hurt on 6/21 but it initially seemed minor and a quick bounce-back was expected. Pino was demoted on 6/26 after his second start. May was put on the DL on 6/27. Pino was recalled a few days afterward.

    I think that series of events pretty clearly indicates that the Twins were planning on calling up May but his injury got in the way.


    Trevor May was placed on the Futures Game roster on June 25 (to replace Marco Gonzalez), a day or so after the official roster was announced. Based on all of the Twins moves in the last 2 weeks of June...it seems pretty clear that May wasn't going to get promoted until after the All Star break.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Meyer certainly scuffled, but it looks a lot worse because of his pitch count limitations. Here is the 3 start span in question:

    2 IP, 5 H, 3 R, 2 BB, 1 K, 55 pitches
    3 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 2 BB, 4 K, 78 pitches
    3.2 IP, 7 H, 4 R, 2 BB, 3 K, 73 pitches

    Without the pitch count restrictions, he probably logs a not-disastrous 5 inning "Deduno special" in at least 1, if not 2 or perhaps even all 3 of those games. If that's his downside, that's not bad. (Deduno's problem is those games appear to his upside.)

    And that so-called "awful" stretch was bookended by 6 IP, 0-1 R, 7-8 K, ~80 pitch games.
    I mentioned multiple times earlier that he was awful every other start, not every start... so it wasn't really an "awful stretch", just inconsistent.

    Either way, his early June was enough to give anyone pause, particularly when talking about a guy on an innings limit with shoulder concerns. It would have been foolish to promote him to MLB when the back of your mind is telling you "I hope he's not having shoulder issues again".

    With that said and done, I think it's time we see Meyer in Minnesota. Let him stay here after the Futures Game, I say.

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  19. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I mentioned multiple times earlier that he was awful every other start, not every start... so it wasn't really an "awful stretch", just inconsistent.

    Either way, his early June was enough to give anyone pause, particularly when talking about a guy on an innings limit with shoulder concerns. It would have been foolish to promote him to MLB when the back of your mind is telling you "I hope he's not having shoulder issues again".

    With that said and done, I think it's time we see Meyer in Minnesota. Let him stay here after the Futures Game, I say.
    Absolutely. At close to 90 IP as of today, he only has 50-60 innings left for 2014, based on the restrictions that Antony, himself, imposed.

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  21. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    . A few weeks here, a few weeks there... Not enough for me to really get irritated. Definitely no 2006 Jason Bartlett situations, that's for sure.
    To a degree, yes, you are sometimes going to have older placeholders. The problem is this team rarely targets younger players/castoffs to fill those roles and it couples that with giving multi-year deals to placeholders. Just not my cup of tea personally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Absolutely. At close to 90 IP as of today, he only has 50-60 innings left for 2014, based on the restrictions that Antony, himself, imposed.
    While it'd be nice to see, I think what's more likely is that the Twins hold off on promoting Meyer until they can move Correia and thereby clear up 40 man roster space.

    It's really unfortunate that May got hurt. I think the Twins are eager to promote one of their better prospects but it's hard to do right now when you know 40 man space is going to open up soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    You omit that June 25, the Twins named Trevor May to start the upcoming Futures Game on July 13. Seems a weird thing to do if you're planning to promote him within the week.

    It certainly is possible that they had May in mind for a promotion sooner, but I don't think that's clear from the above timeline, or from their previous actions (May could have safely been lined up with Deduno as early as late May), or from their 2013 promotion timings.



    Meyer certainly scuffled, but it looks a lot worse because of his pitch count limitations. Here is the 3 start span in question:

    2 IP, 5 H, 3 R, 2 BB, 1 K, 55 pitches
    3 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 2 BB, 4 K, 78 pitches
    3.2 IP, 7 H, 4 R, 2 BB, 3 K, 73 pitches

    Without the pitch count restrictions, he probably logs a not-disastrous 5 inning "Deduno special" in at least 1, if not 2 or perhaps even all 3 of those games. If that's his downside, that's not bad. (Deduno's problem is those games appear to his upside.)

    And that so-called "awful" stretch was bookended by 6 IP, 0-1 R, 7-8 K, ~80 pitch games.
    It goes beyond Deduno though. Pelfrey had a 7.99 ERA.

    In 18 starts, Corriea has failed to reach the 5th inning three times and has 8 starts with 4 ER or more.

    So Meyer goes 4 or 5 IP in those three "inconsistent" starts without an innings limit and he spread around 7 ER in those 3 starts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I mentioned multiple times earlier that he was awful every other start, not every start... so it wasn't really an "awful stretch", just inconsistent.
    But he wasn't "awful every other start" either. Arguably he wasn't awful at all. Dating back to May 10, outside the scuffling three start stretch I mentioned, Meyer made 8 starts, pitched 5+ innings every time, and allowed 2 or fewer runs 6 times, 3 runs once, and 4 runs once. All the while maintaining his season K/9 and BB/9 rates. That's not easy to do on a pitch count of 80! Almost any pitcher is guaranteed to have some short starts under those circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Either way, his early June was enough to give anyone pause, particularly when talking about a guy on an innings limit with shoulder concerns. It would have been foolish to promote him to MLB when the back of your mind is telling you "I hope he's not having shoulder issues again".

    With that said and done, I think it's time we see Meyer in Minnesota. Let him stay here after the Futures Game, I say.
    To be clear: I would have promoted May before Meyer. I think early June was a good time to promote May (no pun intended), and like you say, now (or within a week) is the best time to promote Meyer.

    I have a feeling we're going to be 2-3 months late on both counts, though -- potentially pushing Meyer's promotion into 2015 and requiring an extra veteran starter to be signed as insurance in the offseason, since we will have no MLB data on Meyer yet (and potentially very little on May).

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