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Thread: Article: Nolasco and Injury Culture

  1. #61
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    I find it pretty naive to imply that culture plays no part in an employee's actions. Am I misunderstanding, or are some people saying that?
    Lighten up Francis....

  2. #62
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I find it pretty naive to imply that culture plays no part in an employee's actions. Am I misunderstanding, or are some people saying that?
    I don't think that's being said, I think the point is it's not just a Minnesota Twins culture issue that plays a part here, it's a pro baseball or pro sports culture that is the overall problem.

  3. #63
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    Well, I agree with that, it isn't even a sports' culture, it is a US culture (I can't speak for other countries). People come to work when they shouldn't, for lots of cultural reasons. I do know some companies that are better about that than others.....
    Lighten up Francis....

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    What a great article. I've long thought that this was a problem in sports, not just the Twins.

    Should Michael Jordan have played through injury when he's 80% healthy? Maybe, because 80% of Michael Jordan is a whole lot better than whoever would replace him and the Bulls wouldn't win without Jordan on the court.

    On the other hand, how long does playing through an injury extend that injury? Is it worth playing Michael Jordan at 80% for an entire season when you could sit him for ten days and get a 100% Michael Jordan for the remainder of the season?

    Now apply that thinking to decent players like Ricky Nolasco. An 80% Ricky Nolasco is not a good pitcher because a 100% Ricky Nolasco is only a decent pitcher. The moment a guy like that has an issue, you sit him because not only is he going to be ineffective, he's probably going to be ineffective for a long time because he never properly heals from his injury. It's the responsibility of the player to voice these concerns and it's the responsibility of the organization to respond accordingly.

    So, essentially, we've been dealing with an 80% Ricky Nolasco for half a season and he's been absolutely terrible.

    I don't know if this is Gardy's fault or Nolasco's fault and it doesn't matter, really. Both athletes and organizations need to move on from this ridiculous "rub some dirt on it and walk it off" attitude and do what's best for the team and most of the time that involves benching a player who isn't at 100% because he's not only hurting you in the short-term, he's going to hurt you in the long-term as it's going to be harder for him to get healthy and play the rest of the season at 100%.
    I think this is a wonderful hypothetical thought experiment that would have no grounding in the reality of elite athletes. They don't get to this point by constantly taking themselves out of the action when they are less than 100%. Probably a combination of thinking they are invincible and realizing that at some level they are all replaceable. Also, if someone is a professional and is paid as such, their first and foremost responsibility is to show up and play.
    Papers...business papers.

  5. #65
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
    I think this is a wonderful hypothetical thought experiment that would have no grounding in the reality of elite athletes. They don't get to this point by constantly taking themselves out of the action when they are less than 100%. Probably a combination of thinking they are invincible and realizing that at some level they are all replaceable. Also, if someone is a professional and is paid as such, their first and foremost responsibility is to show up and play.
    While this is very true, I think there is a happier medium between marveling at a guy for being "old school" for not reporting injuries and wanting people to constantly check themselves out of action.

  6. #66
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    If you want Gardenhire fired, you'd better not replace him with Tito Francona

    "Masty's first inclination was wanting to pitch through it, which we respect," Francona said. "The way it was going, though, we thought we'd DL him and get him some treatment."

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    While this is very true, I think there is a happier medium between marveling at a guy for being "old school" for not reporting injuries and wanting people to constantly check themselves out of action.
    I guess I would argue that happy medium is exactly what happened with the Twins and Nolasco.

    I don't follow other teams nearly as closely, but I always had the impression the Twins were on the conservative end of having guys push through injuries. And while I agree the problems with diagnosing injuries is certainly maddening, I'm not convinced it is all that different than other teams. Teams/players are constantly operating in that gray area.

    See post above.
    Papers...business papers.

  8. #68
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
    I guess I would argue that happy medium is exactly what happened with the Twins and Nolasco.

    I don't follow other teams nearly as closely, but I always had the impression the Twins were on the conservative end of having guys push through injuries. And while I agree the problems with diagnosing injuries is certainly maddening, I'm not convinced it is all that different than other teams. Teams/players are constantly operating in that gray area.

    See post above.
    I'm not necessarily dogging the Twins alone, I am using an asinine remark by Gardenhire in this example to illustrate the problem. We can certainly get away from glorifying it as "old school", that is a culture problem the Twins partake in.

  9. #69
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
    I would probably agree that Gardenhire too often expects his guys to play through pain, tough it out, not complain. But that's a problem with baseball culture, and maybe just pro sports culture -- not Minnesota Twins culture. If you can give me some compelling evidence to the contrary, I'm all ears.
    Ryan himself, who is generally loathe to publicly criticize players and staff, called the training/medical staff out on day one of his return to the organization, and fired the head trainer (24 years in the organization) the following season.

    If that doesn't constitute "evidence" that the Twins' handling of player health is cause for concern, then what would?

    And again, yes, it's hard to know what really happened with Nolasco. But suggesting that there's no way an organization couldn't either inadvertently or even purposely create a culture in which a player deliberately downplays or hides an injury or symptom seems far-fetched to say the least.
    Last edited by LaBombo; 07-09-2014 at 03:19 PM.

  10. #70
    IMO, Gardy has created a culture of softness, yet he's still catching flak by some people for not being soft enough.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    What a great article. I've long thought that this was a problem in sports, not just the Twins.

    Should Michael Jordan have played through injury when he's 80% healthy? Maybe, because 80% of Michael Jordan is a whole lot better than whoever would replace him and the Bulls wouldn't win without Jordan on the court.

    On the other hand, how long does playing through an injury extend that injury? Is it worth playing Michael Jordan at 80% for an entire season when you could sit him for ten days and get a 100% Michael Jordan for the remainder of the season?

    Now apply that thinking to decent players like Ricky Nolasco. An 80% Ricky Nolasco is not a good pitcher because a 100% Ricky Nolasco is only a decent pitcher. The moment a guy like that has an issue, you sit him because not only is he going to be ineffective, he's probably going to be ineffective for a long time because he never properly heals from his injury. It's the responsibility of the player to voice these concerns and it's the responsibility of the organization to respond accordingly.

    So, essentially, we've been dealing with an 80% Ricky Nolasco for half a season and he's been absolutely terrible.

    I don't know if this is Gardy's fault or Nolasco's fault and it doesn't matter, really. Both athletes and organizations need to move on from this ridiculous "rub some dirt on it and walk it off" attitude and do what's best for the team and most of the time that involves benching a player who isn't at 100% because he's not only hurting you in the short-term, he's going to hurt you in the long-term as it's going to be harder for him to get healthy and play the rest of the season at 100%.
    If you rested/ DL'd every player playing at 80% you wouldn't be able to field a lineup. Its part of the game. You get banged up. Nobody's saying players should play injured, but you have to be able to play through pain and soreness.

  12. #72
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marta Shearing View Post
    If you rested/ DL'd every player playing at 80% you wouldn't be able to field a lineup. Its part of the game. You get banged up. Nobody's saying players should play injured, but you have to be able to play through pain and soreness.
    Pain and soreness doesn't take a player to 80%. It shouldn't affect a player noticeably once he has loosened up. Pain and soreness are normal. "My bat speed is significantly slower because my wrist hurts" is an injury.

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