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Thread: Why is Kevin Correia so reviled?

  1. #41
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    And to be fair, the front office did seem to learn from their history of inactivity this past offseason. They still might be underfunded, and they still might not be very good and they still might need to change personell, but there certainly seemed to be a concerted effort to get what was percieved to be better pitching talent, and get it early. The agressiveness was a welcomed change even if the results are similar and I'm happy to see they are willing to adapt from what wasn't working.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by rikker49 View Post
    What pitcher would want to come to a team that lost nearly 200 gms in 2 yrs?
    There are ways around this. Last year I was an advocate for trading for Dan Haren. The Angels bought out his $15.5 million contract for $3.5 million. I have to think we could have traded for him for virtually nothing and gotten $2-2.5 million back. If you believe in fWAR Haren was the 7th best pitcher of the last decade. Trading for a guy like that and paying $13 million that year on a contract sells a little hope and tells me you re trying.. Signing a guy who had been dropped from the rotation on one of the worst teams in the league and backloading his contract (2013 = $4.5 million, 2014 = $5.5 million) is selling the fact you are cheap and don't care.

    Note: I know Haren and Correia had nearly equal fWAR last year, from a hope standpoint I would say that was as good as Correia could have been and in the bottom 1/3 of outcomes that Haren could have had.
    Last edited by jharaldson; 07-14-2014 at 09:43 AM.

  3. #43
    Member Rookie rikker49's Avatar
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    No team-changing pitchers sign with last place teams. FA #1 starters are hard to come by. Jack Morris was a 1 ... and he was coming off a bad year. Hopefully Minnesota becomes competitive soon and will be an attractive spot for a FA. Until then, they will keep signing "hole-pluggers"

  4. #44
    The King In The North All-Star Nick Nelson's Avatar
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    Correia has basically pitched up to the fullest of his potential... and posted a 94 ERA+ in 1.5 seasons. In an offseason where the Twins desperately needed impact pitching help, their biggest signing was a veteran with No. 5 upside. I think that's why the signing was so reviled; I have no problem with the guy as a person and would hope most feel the same.

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  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    I concur. When the Twins were winning in the 2000's, the active roster was augmented by "a bat or an arm"--but not a particularily useful one. The FO would display an attitude that could be characterized as "there you go, I 'fixed' your problem". KC is a similar type player, not particularily good but nor is he "bad", but definately not "a team-changing, 'problem-solved' type of player". KC is a "hole-plugger", and many fans believe that "more" should have been done especially in light of the past frustrations and the huge increase in revenues that ultimately come from the public in one form or another. The "bile", to spin a word, is a result of all of those frustrations and much of them got focused on KC.
    Fans, by their nature, have irrational expectations of what a front office can do.
    Papers...business papers.

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    And to be fair, the front office did seem to learn from their history of inactivity this past offseason. They still might be underfunded, and they still might not be very good and they still might need to change personell, but there certainly seemed to be a concerted effort to get what was percieved to be better pitching talent, and get it early. The agressiveness was a welcomed change even if the results are similar and I'm happy to see they are willing to adapt from what wasn't working.
    A more likely explanation is that the past offseason had actual pitching options worth signing in free agency.
    Papers...business papers.

  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by rikker49 View Post
    No team-changing pitchers sign with last place teams. FA #1 starters are hard to come by. Jack Morris was a 1 ... and he was coming off a bad year. Hopefully Minnesota becomes competitive soon and will be an attractive spot for a FA. Until then, they will keep signing "hole-pluggers"
    Morris was still the top paid arm on the market that year and the Twins made him a top 5 paid pitcher in the league. He got paid more than Bob Welch, who the previous season just won 27 games, back when Wins were the most revered stat for pitchers. Tom Browning, Bud Black, Mike Boddicker, Danny Darwin, Charlie Liebrandt, Mike Witt, Zane Smith, Teddy Higuera, Dave Righetti, Goose Gossage, Charlie Hough, Floyd Bannister, Bill Kruger, John Candelaria and Fernando Valenzuela made up the rest of a pretty impressive free agent pitching crop in terms of performance and name recognition.

    Of course the fact that the Twins were willing to get the top free agent arm speaks volumes in itself.

  9. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    Morris was still the top paid arm on the market that year and the Twins made him a top 5 paid pitcher in the league. He got paid more than Bob Welch, who the previous season just won 27 games, back when Wins were the most revered stat for pitchers. Tom Browning, Bud Black, Mike Boddicker, Danny Darwin, Charlie Liebrandt, Mike Witt, Zane Smith, Teddy Higuera, Dave Righetti, Goose Gossage, Charlie Hough, Floyd Bannister, Bill Kruger, John Candelaria and Fernando Valenzuela made up the rest of a pretty impressive free agent pitching crop in terms of performance and name recognition.

    Of course the fact that the Twins were willing to get the top free agent arm speaks volumes in itself.
    Why do people keep bringing up a free agent signing from 1991 like it has any bearing on what happens in today's game (and free agency)?
    Papers...business papers.

  10. #49
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    I think the fan base was jaded by the Livan Hernandez, Sidney Ponson, and Ramon Ortiz signings and KC reminded them of those guys who were brought in as back-of-the-rotation "innings-eaters."

    KC has stayed healthy and pitched OK so the criticism seems to have died down.

  11. #50
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    Paplebon's quote on playing on a losing team
    “Of course, man, What kind of question is that?...Some guys want to stay on a losing team? That’s mind-boggling to me,”
    Losing teams will have a more difficult time attracting players. While the 1990 Twins may have been a losing team there was a core group of very good players. You can not say that about the 2011-2013 Twins. It is not a similar situation to compare to. Morris also essentially signed a one year contract with some protection for himself. Staring on a winning team netted him a 10 million contract. What top free agent over the last few years has used a bottom of the league team to springboard themselves to a better contract? The better free agents that the current Twins can attract are ones with big question marks attached. Willingham is a great hitting outfielder if healthy. 1/3 years healthy and he does not recover quickly. Hughes was a risk.

  12. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by rikker49 View Post
    What pitcher would want to come to a team that lost nearly 200 gms in 2 yrs? It would be a mid to low quality pitcher. Any halfway decent pitcher would take a little less to go to a winning team. As a Twin fan I realized that the FO can throw money at a FA pitcher, but that doesn't mean they want to come here. What you will get is mid-to-low level pitchers like KC, or pitchers coming off injuries like Pelf. You take chances on other pitchers and hope to get lucky like Hughes, or you overpay for mid-level pitchers like Nolasco. Until this team becomes competitive again, FA pitchers willing to come here will be the likes of KC. For someone who makes 5mil a year, I am happy with the production of KC. The only problem I see is that he was put into a 2-3 starter role instead of the 4-5 starter he actually is.
    Seems ironic that, in a post saying the only FA pitchers willing to come here are the likes of KC, you named 3 pitchers with higher upside who also came here (and for more money than KC).

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  14. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
    Why do people keep bringing up a free agent signing from 1991 like it has any bearing on what happens in today's game (and free agency)?
    I didn't bring it up.

    Front office defenders allowed to discuss 1991 while front office nuetral commenters are not?

  15. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    I didn't bring it up.

    Front office defenders allowed to discuss 1991 while front office nuetral commenters are not?
    I didn't mean it for you specifically (or even primarily) - probably shouldn't have quoted you.

    People can talk about whatever they want. I would just say using free agency signings in 1991 like it has any bearing on free agent signings in 2014 probably hurts your credibility.
    Papers...business papers.

  16. #54
    There are two starting pitchers in baseball that have struck out fewer than 5 per 9 innings. Gibson is at 4.72. Correia is at 4.12. And Gibson has a top 10 ground ball rate to help make up for the lack of strikeouts.

    So I think the vitriol comes from the history of the signing, but it also comes from the fact that he (a) isn't very entertaining, (b) isn't very good, and (c) his good streaks don't look remotely sustainable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sconnie View Post
    Spot on Shane, I don't dislike the guy, it's that the Twins have pitchers in the minors that I would rather see. Similar for Nolasco, except he hasn't pitched up to his career averages. Were Nolasco pitch to his career averages, I'm fine with him as the number 4 type starter.
    I agree with this point (that we have guys like M and M we would rather see). A also agree that we signed him at the time we needed something better. That is not his fault. If the Twins want to pay me $5M a year to pitch I will. I am primarily a one pitch guy. The 75 mph heater, assuming I get a running start.
    Last edited by tobi0040; 07-14-2014 at 12:47 PM.

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  19. #56
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    On the general subject of Correia, he seems like an OK dude, but I guess a couple things colored my perception of him before he even became a Twin:

    1) He was an undeserved all-star in 2011. He lucked into a 11-7 record with ~93 ERA+ for the Pirates at the 2011 break. And he wasn't even one of those lovable token selections like Ron Coomer, as the Pirates also had McCutchen and Hanrahan on the team. He was just a poor (and in hindsight unnecessary) replacement for Cole Hamels, who started the prior Sunday and was thus ineligible to appear in the all-star game. (Non-all-star teammate AJ Burnett was 10-2 with a ~100 ERA+ at the break, with a much better career track record.)

    Correia didn't pitch in the game either, and finished the year 12-11 with a 78 ERA+, close to his career starting marks in both categories.

    2) When demoted to the bullpen for the newly-acquired Wandy Rodriguez in July 2012, as the Pirates were pushing for their first winning record if not playoff appearance in ages, he publicly demanded a trade so he could go elsewhere to start. Didn't come off as a very "team" player on what was a very easy team to root for. Also seemed woefully out of touch with his own abilities, even by pro athlete standards: he was finishing a 2-year, $8 mil contract (not the kind of contract that suggests a pennant race starter), and he had a 89 ERA+ at the time of demotion, with a ~81 career ERA+ as a starting pitcher. He was perhaps fortunate to be #6 on the Pirates SP depth chart at the time!

    I guess it is quite possible the Pirates "guaranteed" him a starting spot when he signed, as it seems he left his hometown Padres after a demotion to the bullpen 2 years earlier, presumably seeking a chance to start Still didn't seem a great way to handle it. And all told, he only missed 3 turns in the rotation, getting 9 more opportunities to start during the Pirates epic collapse of August-September that year. (I also suspect the Twins gave him a similar guarantee about starting.) Seemed like Correia was trying to have his cake and eat it too: he obviously jumped at getting a guaranteed two-year deal, but should have really understood the team composition in his 2nd year was likely to change his role (hence why most players of his ability are limited to one-year contracts).

    Those two events were really my only exposure to KC before he signed with the Twins, and while they don't muster up anything near "revulsion", they did give me a mild negative vibe. Of course, all of my concern about him the past two seasons involves the team's moves (or non-moves) around him.
    Last edited by spycake; 07-14-2014 at 01:47 PM.

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  21. #57
    Senior Member Triple-A h2oface's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    This year, Correia suffers from the anxiousness to see Meyer and May and the impression that he's the least likely starter to have a future with the Twins.
    I would sure hope I am not alone in believing that Pelfrey should be the least likely to have a future with the Twins. Pelfrey, Correia, and Nolasco don't miss bats, and never did. The ineptitude of a GM that would sign Pelfrey to a handsome (for Pelfrey) contract after 2013 means that he will be around for more nothingness and blocking of a young pitcher for yet another year, and Nolasco supposedly now has an excuse and is regardless, around for another mind tingling 3. Correia should be dealt now before he fades (as his career stats show he does season after season in the second half) and those balls coming off those bats he still doesn't miss can land in a new teams outfield.
    Last edited by h2oface; 07-15-2014 at 02:47 PM.

  22. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by h2oface View Post
    I would sure hope I am not alone in believing that Pelfrey should be the least likely to have a future with the Twins. Pelfrey, Correia, and Nolasco don't miss bats, and never did. The ineptitude of a GM that would sign Pelfrey to a handsome (for Pelfrey) contract after 2013 means that he will be around for more nothingness and blocking of a young pitcher for yet another year, and Nolasco supposedly now has an excuse and is regardless, around for another mind tingling 3. Correia should be dealt now before he fades (as his career stats show he does season after season in the second half) and those balls coming off those bats he still doesn't miss can land in a new teams outfield.
    My post was meant to apply to the Twins currently in the rotation, but yes, in a very marginal and academic way, Pelfrey seems more likely to me to be back than Correia because he is A), unfortunately and inadvisedly under contract for next season, and B), unlike Correia, has expressed no reluctance to pitch from the bullpen.

    Don't want either pitcher back, but letting Pelfrey try to earn a spot in the pen, especially in the minors, seems a lot less unpalatable than trying to milk another year or more *shudder* in the rotation from Correia.

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  24. #59
    Member Rookie rikker49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    Seems ironic that, in a post saying the only FA pitchers willing to come here are the likes of KC, you named 3 pitchers with higher upside who also came here (and for more money than KC).
    I was listing 4 types of pitchers that would come to a losing team. KC is one example. My point was that high quality pitchers don't sign with losing teams.

  25. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    On the general subject of Correia, he seems like an OK dude, but I guess a couple things colored my perception of him before he even became a Twin:

    1) He was an undeserved all-star in 2011. He lucked into a 11-7 record with ~93 ERA+ for the Pirates at the 2011 break. And he wasn't even one of those lovable token selections like Ron Coomer, as the Pirates also had McCutchen and Hanrahan on the team. He was just a poor (and in hindsight unnecessary) replacement for Cole Hamels, who started the prior Sunday and was thus ineligible to appear in the all-star game. (Non-all-star teammate AJ Burnett was 10-2 with a ~100 ERA+ at the break, with a much better career track record.)

    Correia didn't pitch in the game either, and finished the year 12-11 with a 78 ERA+, close to his career starting marks in both categories.

    2) When demoted to the bullpen for the newly-acquired Wandy Rodriguez in July 2012, as the Pirates were pushing for their first winning record if not playoff appearance in ages, he publicly demanded a trade so he could go elsewhere to start. Didn't come off as a very "team" player on what was a very easy team to root for. Also seemed woefully out of touch with his own abilities, even by pro athlete standards: he was finishing a 2-year, $8 mil contract (not the kind of contract that suggests a pennant race starter), and he had a 89 ERA+ at the time of demotion, with a ~81 career ERA+ as a starting pitcher. He was perhaps fortunate to be #6 on the Pirates SP depth chart at the time!

    I guess it is quite possible the Pirates "guaranteed" him a starting spot when he signed, as it seems he left his hometown Padres after a demotion to the bullpen 2 years earlier, presumably seeking a chance to start Still didn't seem a great way to handle it. And all told, he only missed 3 turns in the rotation, getting 9 more opportunities to start during the Pirates epic collapse of August-September that year. (I also suspect the Twins gave him a similar guarantee about starting.) Seemed like Correia was trying to have his cake and eat it too: he obviously jumped at getting a guaranteed two-year deal, but should have really understood the team composition in his 2nd year was likely to change his role (hence why most players of his ability are limited to one-year contracts).

    Those two events were really my only exposure to KC before he signed with the Twins, and while they don't muster up anything near "revulsion", they did give me a mild negative vibe. Of course, all of my concern about him the past two seasons involves the team's moves (or non-moves) around him.
    Well we sure can't blame KC for "demanding a trade, so he could start...". There's no way the Twins (or anybody else) would have paid him $5MM/yr to be a relief pitcher. All he did was "look out for #1"--sort of like what Kevin Slowey did.... Begin rock throwing.

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