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Thread: Boras, Morales interested in long term deal.

  1. #101
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    Culture is super important. But, this isn't a winning team. Bringing back the veterans that have produced another mediocre/bad season, how does that help create that culture?
    Lighten up Francis....

  2. #102
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    Paying to retain Morales because he (might) provide an extra 3-4 wins instead of another Twins' player only makes sense if: a) those extra wins make the difference between a World winner or a 1st round victim, b) the difference between a playoff team or being a complete also-ran, or c) Morales will be here for several years and will be providing those extra wins for many seasons. Since virtually every poster advocating re-signing Morales uses the premise of a 1-year contract option c) isn't valid. Option a) is pure fantasy. Which leaves option b). Some will believe in the potential for next season, some won't. However, if you truly believe in next season's Twins as a playoff team with Morales under contract, then Morales should have been signed for many seasons, not just for 2015. Sorry folks the logic of a one-year contract for Morales isn't there. Morales should be "let go" (hopefully with some useful compensation) or he should be signed for several seasons.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    Paying to retain Morales because he (might) provide an extra 3-4 wins instead of another Twins' player only makes sense if: a) those extra wins make the difference between a World winner or a 1st round victim, b) the difference between a playoff team or being a complete also-ran, or c) Morales will be here for several years and will be providing those extra wins for many seasons. Since virtually every poster advocating re-signing Morales uses the premise of a 1-year contract option c) isn't valid. Option a) is pure fantasy. Which leaves option b). Some will believe in the potential for next season, some won't. However, if you truly believe in next season's Twins as a playoff team with Morales under contract, then Morales should have been signed for many seasons, not just for 2015. Sorry folks the logic of a one-year contract for Morales isn't there. Morales should be "let go" (hopefully with some useful compensation) or he should be signed for several seasons.
    I really disagree with this thinking and actually would argue you have it backwards. There is very rarely a bad one year contract, but locking a player into multiple years leaves a franchise stuck with a contact. It is not necessarily the money but the roster spot a declining player takes up.

    I would think a team should always be trying to sign players to field the best team. The reason you would be hesitant to sign free agents would be they either a) block a younger player that is ready to play, or b) you have to sign the player for more years than he will bring value, either through decline or if you will have a player ready before the contract is up (for example, the Twins shouldn't sign a CF to more than a one year deal).
    Papers...business papers.

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  5. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Culture is super important. But, this isn't a winning team. Bringing back the veterans that have produced another mediocre/bad season, how does that help create that culture?
    Even though we're not winning, per se, the team is doing better. That a veteran in Morales, and frankly lots of others, expresses such adoration for the club suggests something about our culture (even in spite of winning). So Morales helps maintain that culture and pass it on; that he's Hispanic, I think, also matters.

    Again, this is a fungible concept. I see it this way. 1) We have the cash. 2) We do not have enough ML hitters to fill DH (Vargas and others are yet unproven). 3) Any redundant assets can be dealt to help the club. 4) Depth isn't sexy, but it really does matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    4) Depth isn't sexy, but it really does matter.
    I'd say it matters more than anything depending on how you define "depth".

    A couple of 5-6 WAR players won't get you to the playoffs.

    A team of 2-3 WAR players? They'll give you a damned good shot at the postseason. You may not advance but you'll be competitive.

    Good teams are built on the backs of the good-but-not-spectacular players. You know, players kinda like Kendrys Morales.

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  8. #106
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    I am wondering how Pinto and Vargas get enough plate appearances to become proven. It may take 1000 major league plate appearances as a batter and league continue to adjust to each other.

    Pinto and Vargas are not going to learn how to hit major league pitching in the minors. They can demonstrate an ability to hit minor league pitching. They will need a chance to struggle in the majors. That can't happen on the bench watching Morales.

    The Twins need to make the call on Pinto soon. Is there a chance he can be a catcher? If so, they need to get him behind the plate regularly. It might be wise to break him in with someone other than one of the most difficult pitchers to catch in Deduno. If he isn't going to be a regular catcher, then they need to put him at DH regularly.

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  10. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post
    I am wondering how Pinto and Vargas get enough plate appearances to become proven. It may take 1000 major league plate appearances as a batter and league continue to adjust to each other.

    Pinto and Vargas are not going to learn how to hit major league pitching in the minors. They can demonstrate an ability to hit minor league pitching. They will need a chance to struggle in the majors. That can't happen on the bench watching Morales.

    The Twins need to make the call on Pinto soon. Is there a chance he can be a catcher? If so, they need to get him behind the plate regularly. It might be wise to break him in with someone other than one of the most difficult pitchers to catch in Deduno. If he isn't going to be a regular catcher, then they need to put him at DH regularly.

    +1000000000
    Lighten up Francis....

  11. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Or maybe he just likes it here. He wouldn't be the first player to talk up how much he likes the Twins clubhouse.

    But no, Morales is not a good fit going forward. I'm glad he likes it here but with Arcia, Pinto, Mauer, and Vargas, there isn't much room for another plodder on this roster.
    Maybe, but the last guy that "loved playing here" was Pelfrey.

    Hopefully we either trade him or give him a 1 or 2 year deal at $7M per.

  12. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post
    I am wondering how Pinto and Vargas get enough plate appearances to become proven. It may take 1000 major league plate appearances as a batter and league continue to adjust to each other.

    Pinto and Vargas are not going to learn how to hit major league pitching in the minors. They can demonstrate an ability to hit minor league pitching. They will need a chance to struggle in the majors. That can't happen on the bench watching Morales.

    The Twins need to make the call on Pinto soon. Is there a chance he can be a catcher? If so, they need to get him behind the plate regularly. It might be wise to break him in with someone other than one of the most difficult pitchers to catch in Deduno. If he isn't going to be a regular catcher, then they need to put him at DH regularly.
    IMO, The goal isn't to get minor leaguers opportunities. The goal is to win baseball games.

    I don't know, but I'd wager a good sum of money that neither Vargas or Pinto have a career equal to Morales. That's not because I'm down on either, rather it's because the reality is most minor leaguers don't.

    I strongly believe that the way to have long term success in MLB is to populate your team with good, proven players. Lots of em. You make room for minor leaguers when they force their way into the picture, and avoid at almost all costs creating room for them before they do. If, for a period of time, you have too many players, and not enough ABs to accommodate them, that's a good thing, and that situation is in no way a hindrance to winning, nor is it likely to stay that way for long.

    On the other hand, not having enough good players, and depending on the minor leagues to supply them, is how you end up "waiting till next year" for a decade or two.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

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  14. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post
    I am wondering how Pinto and Vargas get enough plate appearances to become proven. It may take 1000 major league plate appearances as a batter and league continue to adjust to each other.

    Pinto and Vargas are not going to learn how to hit major league pitching in the minors. They can demonstrate an ability to hit minor league pitching. They will need a chance to struggle in the majors. That can't happen on the bench watching Morales.

    The Twins need to make the call on Pinto soon. Is there a chance he can be a catcher? If so, they need to get him behind the plate regularly. It might be wise to break him in with someone other than one of the most difficult pitchers to catch in Deduno. If he isn't going to be a regular catcher, then they need to put him at DH regularly.
    +1 Agree. Once the Twins decide they are out of contention, it's development time. And honestly, I don't think fan interest would wane if you had Vargas, Pinto, May, Meyer, Rosario, Kepler (hey, he's on the 40 man), etc would be on the roster taking at bats.

  15. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post
    I am wondering how Pinto and Vargas get enough plate appearances to become proven. It may take 1000 major league plate appearances as a batter and league continue to adjust to each other.

    Pinto and Vargas are not going to learn how to hit major league pitching in the minors. They can demonstrate an ability to hit minor league pitching. They will need a chance to struggle in the majors. That can't happen on the bench watching Morales.

    The Twins need to make the call on Pinto soon. Is there a chance he can be a catcher? If so, they need to get him behind the plate regularly. It might be wise to break him in with someone other than one of the most difficult pitchers to catch in Deduno. If he isn't going to be a regular catcher, then they need to put him at DH regularly.
    In Pinto's case, his problem isn't hitting MLB pitching (at least that's not his major problem). It's working with pitchers and being a catcher. He's best served by doing that in the minors, I believe. From pretty much every account by everyone involved, he has a lot of work to do before he's a MLB catcher defensively.

    And Vargas? He's not going to be ready in April of 2015 anyway. If the Twins are in contention with Morales next season, great. Slide Vargas into a swing role in July and let him take his hacks with the understanding he's your guy in 2016.

    If the Twins are out of contention, Morales should be traded in July anyway. You can give Vargas all the DH plate appearances at that point.

    I just don't see how Suzuki or Morales are blocking anyone until this time next season. Neither Pinto nor Vargas will be ready for a full-time role in Minnesota for quite some time.

    And none of this brings up the various injury issues teams have throughout a season, allowing guys to get a taste of the MLB before you expect to see them.

  16. #112
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    The premise of the article is long term deal. Most of the arguments for Morales seem to be based on a one year deal that it seems highly unlikely he would take. I believe the Twins promised or he is free from the qualified offer scenario so just how are the Twins going to turn a long term deal into a one year deal? If it takes more than one year to get him to stay how does he not block prospects?

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  18. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dman View Post
    The premise of the article is long term deal. Most of the arguments for Morales seem to be based on a one year deal that it seems highly unlikely he would take. I believe the Twins promised or he is free from the qualified offer scenario so just how are the Twins going to turn a long term deal into a one year deal? If it takes more than one year to get him to stay how does he not block prospects?
    If he isn't interested in a one-year deal, I'd probably balk at signing him at all. I *might* go two years if the price is right.

    The thing is that neither Pinto nor Vargas are can't-miss prospects. They both have issues going forward and their chance of failure is pretty high. If Morales was "blocking" Byron Buxton, I'd feel very differently about it.

  19. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    If he isn't interested in a one-year deal, I'd probably balk at signing him at all. I *might* go two years if the price is right.

    The thing is that neither Pinto nor Vargas are can't-miss prospects. They both have issues going forward and their chance of failure is pretty high. If Morales was "blocking" Byron Buxton, I'd feel very differently about it.
    I agree with you especially on Vargas. It just seems highly unlikely he is ready at the beginning of next year to step into that role. I agree with the depth argument and the Twins have the money to sign him. I too am concerned if long term is longer than one year. One year is ideal and the plan you laid out is solid. I just think he is looking for three years. I am not sure he will find it but you never know. One of the big market teams might snatch him up for depth. I personally do like Pinto in the DH\backup catcher role. I just don't have confidence he is going to make it as a starting catcher. I agree he could fail or struggle in that role but his bat and approach seem pretty solid. Ultimately I don't think we can count on Morales doing a one year deal unless all other teams turn him down for multi-year deals.

  20. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    The thing is that neither Pinto nor Vargas are can't-miss prospects. They both have issues going forward and their chance of failure is pretty high. If Morales was "blocking" Byron Buxton, I'd feel very differently about it.
    Agreed 100%. If you have Mauer and Morales at DH/1B and Vargas is killing it....it gives you options and is not a bad problem to have. Maybe Mauer can move to LF, maybe you trade one.

    I too would only be upset if Buxton, Sano, May, or Meyer are blocked.

  21. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
    I really disagree with this thinking and actually would argue you have it backwards. There is very rarely a bad one year contract, but locking a player into multiple years leaves a franchise stuck with a contact. It is not necessarily the money but the roster spot a declining player takes up.

    I would think a team should always be trying to sign players to field the best team. The reason you would be hesitant to sign free agents would be they either a) block a younger player that is ready to play, or b) you have to sign the player for more years than he will bring value, either through decline or if you will have a player ready before the contract is up (for example, the Twins shouldn't sign a CF to more than a one year deal).
    Guys, signing Morales for a year or 2 at 7 or 8 mil a year isn't happening. He won't take it and can probably get more on the open market for a short term deal. The only realistic options are :

    1. Sign him long term - at least 3 years, at least 9-10 mil a year and it may take more.
    2. Trade him before July 31 ( he won't pass waivers for an August deal) for prospects, and probably not A or even B+ prospects, maybe B and and a C, because he's not hitting.
    3. Keep for the rest of this year and hope to re-sign him if no good market develops for him or be resigned to letting him walk away.

    Those are the choices. I prefer number 2 because of his limitations in the field and our crowded first base options (although I am intrigued with Mauer in left and Morales at first, with Parmalee backing up both positions). I'd be ok with number one because you always need professional hitters and we don't know if Vargas or Pinto will develop. Let's just not go for number 3. It's time to make a decision.

  22. #117
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    "It's time to make a decision."

    Concur.
    Every post is not every other post. - a wise man

  23. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post
    I am wondering how Pinto and Vargas get enough plate appearances to become proven. It may take 1000 major league plate appearances as a batter and league continue to adjust to each other.
    Teams that give unproven players 1000 of at bats to prove themselves lose. There seems to be an assumption that players like Vargas and Pinto will prove themselves, and will be equal or better than Morales in the near future. If that assumption were a guarantee, we'd all agree with you.

    Morales on a short deal only hurts the Twins if Vargas and Pinto will out-produce Morales over the next two years; we've seen how long it takes hitters to develop, from Parm to Plouffe, to Cuddy, to Hicks, etc. Mere repetition doesn't create major league hitters, it's making adjustments, and sometimes that needs to happen in the minors.

    I just think they'll be plenty of at bats to go around given injury, developmental set backs, an ever evolving roster.
    Last edited by PseudoSABR; 07-16-2014 at 12:28 PM.

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  25. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMCACCAL View Post
    Guys, signing Morales for a year or 2 at 7 or 8 mil a year isn't happening. He won't take it and can probably get more on the open market for a short term deal. The only realistic options are :

    1. Sign him long term - at least 3 years, at least 9-10 mil a year and it may take more.
    2. Trade him before July 31 ( he won't pass waivers for an August deal) for prospects, and probably not A or even B+ prospects, maybe B and and a C, because he's not hitting.
    3. Keep for the rest of this year and hope to re-sign him if no good market develops for him or be resigned to letting him walk away.

    Those are the choices. I prefer number 2 because of his limitations in the field and our crowded first base options (although I am intrigued with Mauer in left and Morales at first, with Parmalee backing up both positions). I'd be ok with number one because you always need professional hitters and we don't know if Vargas or Pinto will develop. Let's just not go for number 3. It's time to make a decision.
    I like 1 or 2, but if a two year deal at $15M total is not attainable, then he doesn't really want to play here. So be it. #2 it is.

  26. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    IMO, The goal isn't to get minor leaguers opportunities. The goal is to win baseball games.

    I don't know, but I'd wager a good sum of money that neither Vargas or Pinto have a career equal to Morales. That's not because I'm down on either, rather it's because the reality is most minor leaguers don't.

    I strongly believe that the way to have long term success in MLB is to populate your team with good, proven players. Lots of em. You make room for minor leaguers when they force their way into the picture, and avoid at almost all costs creating room for them before they do. If, for a period of time, you have too many players, and not enough ABs to accommodate them, that's a good thing, and that situation is in no way a hindrance to winning, nor is it likely to stay that way for long.

    On the other hand, not having enough good players, and depending on the minor leagues to supply them, is how you end up "waiting till next year" for a decade or two.
    I agree with this, but the problem is that eventually, that good player you signed to a major deal is no longer a good player and is blocking guys who could out perform him. I'm fine personally with a short term deal for Morales knowing that the spot is free for 2015 for sure, but there are guys in A+/AA that look like they can be ready in a year and even an interesting bat in Romero at AAA who could in theory DH and occasionally be counted on being a butcher in the field for a fraction of the cost...

    I might add that all of this is moot if Morales doesn't pick up the pace. He's been here for a month now. Spring training is over.

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