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Thread: Pirates as a trade partner for Twins

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    Owner All-Star John Bonnes's Avatar
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    Pirates as a trade partner for Twins

    Since the Twins are facing the Pirates this week, let's talk a little about them as potential trade partners for the Twins.

    The Pirates are desperate for offense. Their first base situation is an absolute disaster, which is why I talked about Morneau as a possible fit for them. Looking at the MLBTradeRumors thread about the Twins "needing pitching" there are several Pirates fans openly pining for Willingham.

    The Pirates also have a couple of highly rated pitching prospects. Gerrit Cole was a top 20 overall prospect, a 21-year-old right hander. He just got promoted to AA. Jameson Taillon is a notch below him in status, but still very highly rated, 20 years old, having mixed results in High A ball. They also have a 17 year old that is a high ceiling guy named Luis Heredia.

    I don't know if either Cole or Taillon is touchable, to be honest, even for Willingham. ANyone else have any ideas?

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    I don't know if either Cole or Taillon is touchable, to be honest, even for Willingham. ANyone else have any ideas?
    It's certainly something to watch. Pirates are basically tied for the last wildcard spot and, after 19 years of really bad baseball, it'll be interesting to see if they would be willing to move Taillon. If they sign Appel it might make it a bit more possible. But I also expect Pitt to fall down the standings before the deadline looms so they'll end up staying pat. But from the Twins stand point, it makes sense to demand someone like Taillon in return for Willingham. If you don't get him, some other team will (hopefully) pay in a tight race. I think Cole would be untouchable and Hereida's too far away to interest me.

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    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    I read through that same thread, and some of the proposed transactions (obviously from Pirates fans) were out-and-out ridiculous - wanting Willingham and Morneau for a handful of minor league spare parts.

    I'm hoping that's just fans dreaming (we don't have any of those, do we) and not reflecting what the Pirates organization is hoping for. My fear is that the Pirates are thinking the Twins are so desparate for pitching that we'll give away good players for peanuts. If they're serious, they'll offer a Cole or a Taillon, and we should hold out until they do.

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    Senior Member Double-A shs_59's Avatar
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    Luis Heredia and Starling Marte (AAA OF prospect) would be my targets, they just drafted Appel though, so they may be willing to part with 1 of Cole or Taillon....for Willingham but we'd probably have to throw 1 of Perk or Burton at them also to bite.

    The Pirates have a SS in Allen Hanson (could be mispelling his name) in A Ball who is a VERY good and advanced hitter for his age, that will certainly rocket up the minor leagues in the next year or so.... He is a REAL Middle Infield prospect and I'd probably do Doumit or one of the relievers straight up for him. -they'd probably be more willing to part with Hanson or Hansen? than Marte.
    Top Twins prospects ? 1.Byron Buxton (OF-A+)
    2.Miguel Sano (3B-AA) 3.Alex Meyer (SP-AA) 4. Kohl Stewart (SP-RK) 5. Nick Gordon (SS-RK) 6. J.O. Berrios (P-A) 7. Josmil Pinto (C-AAA) 8. Eddie Rosario (2B-AA) 9. L. Thorpe (SP-RK) 10. Travis Harrison (3B-A) 11.Kennys Vargas (1B-A+) 12. Trevor May (SP-AA) 13. Jorge Polanco (2B-A) 14. Max Kepler (OF-A) 15. Miguel Sulbaran (SP-A) Just Missed:P Zach Jones, SS Aderlin Mejia, P Stephen Gonsalves, C Stuart Turner.

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    Senior Member Double-A PMKI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shs_59 View Post
    Luis Heredia and Starling Marte (AAA OF prospect) would be my targets, they just drafted Appel though, so they may be willing to part with 1 of Cole or Taillon....for Willingham but we'd probably have to throw 1 of Perk or Burton at them also to bite.

    The Pirates have a SS in Allen Hanson (could be mispelling his name) in A Ball who is a VERY good and advanced hitter for his age, that will certainly rocket up the minor leagues in the next year or so.... He is a REAL Middle Infield prospect and I'd probably do Doumit or one of the relievers straight up for him. -they'd probably be more willing to part with Hanson or Hansen? than Marte.
    Doumit going back to Pittsburgh? Interesting. I like the idea of getting Alen Hanson, he is still a ways away but he would be somebody who would come up with the Sano group. I really cannot see the Pirates giving up either Cole or Taillon but it would be great if I was wrong.

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    Owner All-Star John Bonnes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shs_59 View Post
    Luis Heredia and Starling Marte (AAA OF prospect) would be my targets, they just drafted Appel though, so they may be willing to part with 1 of Cole or Taillon....for Willingham but we'd probably have to throw 1 of Perk or Burton at them also to bite.

    The Pirates have a SS in Allen Hanson (could be mispelling his name) in A Ball who is a VERY good and advanced hitter for his age, that will certainly rocket up the minor leagues in the next year or so.... He is a REAL Middle Infield prospect and I'd probably do Doumit or one of the relievers straight up for him. -they'd probably be more willing to part with Hanson or Hansen? than Marte.
    Hanson is a very interesting name. It goes against the grain because he's not pitching. He's also not a shortstop. He's also at the same level as Rosario. But 19 years old with a .558 slugging in Low A? Wow.

    Does anyone know of a pitching prospect that might be a good fit for trading Morneau?

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    Do you think the Pirates will take on the multiyear salary commitment and trade for Willingham or Morneau?

    The new CBA will shake up the trade market this year. Similar players in the last year of the contract should be "cheaper" to acquire. Teams will be desparate to trade them because they will not receive comp picks at the end of the year.

    For example, Carlos Quentin will be a free agent after the season. The Padres will be motivated to trade him or get nothing at the end of the year. The Pirates or similar team would not need to take on his contract over multiple years. He will be traded for less than what the Twins should accept for Willingham. This new CBA environment could depress the entire trade market with some teams highly motivated to trade their players with expiring contracts.

    The best match for players like Willingham or Morneau would be teams that have shown they are more willing to take on long term commitment. For that reason, I don't think the Pirates are a good fit.

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    Twins Contributor All-Star Jeremy Nygaard's Avatar
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    Cole can't be traded this year before the deadline since he signed on August 15th last year. Though that point is moot, since neither him nor Taillon will be moved for anything short of baseball's elite. Heredia is an interesting case, but I don't see him being moved either...

    I don't think the Pirates will be buyers either, but for the sake of this thread, I'll throw some names out:

    Kyle McPherson, RHP, AA. McPherson, the Pirates minor league pitcher of the year in 2011, made his season debut on Saturday after being out with shoulder inflammation all year. He was good too. Picture Scott Diamond, turn him right-handed, make him a little bigger, switch out his mediocre 2011 with a really good year... and that's McPherson. Not going to strike out a ton of guys, but won't walk guys either. He's a little bit older, but I'd bet attainable.

    Victor Black, RHRP, AA. Black was a guy I thought the Twins would target when there were Pirates/Kubel rumors last year. He's battled injuries, but has been healthy and really good in 2012. He profiles as a guy who could work his way to the very back of the bullpen if he can keep the walks under control. He's a power arm who strikes a lot of guys out.

    Zack Von Rosenberg, RHP, HiA. I've always been a fan of Von Rosenberg, even though he's been far from great. He was a high school guy that dropped because of signability concerns (was going to play baseball and punt at LSU), but took a big bonus and has been a disappointment. He had a rough spring training, just recently making his season debut. I think he could still develop... and this might be a chance to buy low.

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    Taillon and Cole? I hope people from other organizations don't find this thread and laugh at us.

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    Twins Contributor All-Star Jeremy Nygaard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    Taillon and Cole? I hope people from other organizations don't find this thread and laugh at us.
    No kidding, huh? Their are probably Pirates fans out there that think they can trade Stetson Allie for both Morneau and Willingham, so it all evens out eventually.

    But you're right, Taillon and Cole - not going anywhere.

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    Senior Member Double-A shs_59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Nygaard View Post
    Cole can't be traded this year before the deadline since he signed on August 15th last year. Though that point is moot, since neither him nor Taillon will be moved for anything short of baseball's elite. Heredia is an interesting case, but I don't see him being moved either...

    I don't think the Pirates will be buyers either, but for the sake of this thread, I'll throw some names out:

    Kyle McPherson, RHP, AA. McPherson, the Pirates minor league pitcher of the year in 2011, made his season debut on Saturday after being out with shoulder inflammation all year. He was good too. Picture Scott Diamond, turn him right-handed, make him a little bigger, switch out his mediocre 2011 with a really good year... and that's McPherson. Not going to strike out a ton of guys, but won't walk guys either. He's a little bit older, but I'd bet attainable.

    Victor Black, RHRP, AA. Black was a guy I thought the Twins would target when there were Pirates/Kubel rumors last year. He's battled injuries, but has been healthy and really good in 2012. He profiles as a guy who could work his way to the very back of the bullpen if he can keep the walks under control. He's a power arm who strikes a lot of guys out.

    Zack Von Rosenberg, RHP, HiA. I've always been a fan of Von Rosenberg, even though he's been far from great. He was a high school guy that dropped because of signability concerns (was going to play baseball and punt at LSU), but took a big bonus and has been a disappointment. He had a rough spring training, just recently making his season debut. I think he could still develop... and this might be a chance to buy low.
    Between McPherson, Black, and Von Rosenburg.... I'd go McPherson, but likely None of that threesome is going to amount to anything more than a back-end starter or middle reliever And thats likely, IMO, BESt CASE scenerio.

    I'd strongly recommend targeting Heredia, but then again, the PIrates may have a higher fetch on him than Taillon at this point, and right there with Cole.
    Top Twins prospects ? 1.Byron Buxton (OF-A+)
    2.Miguel Sano (3B-AA) 3.Alex Meyer (SP-AA) 4. Kohl Stewart (SP-RK) 5. Nick Gordon (SS-RK) 6. J.O. Berrios (P-A) 7. Josmil Pinto (C-AAA) 8. Eddie Rosario (2B-AA) 9. L. Thorpe (SP-RK) 10. Travis Harrison (3B-A) 11.Kennys Vargas (1B-A+) 12. Trevor May (SP-AA) 13. Jorge Polanco (2B-A) 14. Max Kepler (OF-A) 15. Miguel Sulbaran (SP-A) Just Missed:P Zach Jones, SS Aderlin Mejia, P Stephen Gonsalves, C Stuart Turner.

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    Senior Member Double-A shs_59's Avatar
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    LHP Nick Kingham is another Pitts. option but he's struggling.....

    Other Ideas- S.F. Giants....... SP Michael Kickham.... or even Erik Surkamp (less likely)
    Top Twins prospects ? 1.Byron Buxton (OF-A+)
    2.Miguel Sano (3B-AA) 3.Alex Meyer (SP-AA) 4. Kohl Stewart (SP-RK) 5. Nick Gordon (SS-RK) 6. J.O. Berrios (P-A) 7. Josmil Pinto (C-AAA) 8. Eddie Rosario (2B-AA) 9. L. Thorpe (SP-RK) 10. Travis Harrison (3B-A) 11.Kennys Vargas (1B-A+) 12. Trevor May (SP-AA) 13. Jorge Polanco (2B-A) 14. Max Kepler (OF-A) 15. Miguel Sulbaran (SP-A) Just Missed:P Zach Jones, SS Aderlin Mejia, P Stephen Gonsalves, C Stuart Turner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shs_59 View Post
    LHP Nick Kingham is another Pitts. option but he's struggling.....

    Other Ideas- S.F. Giants....... SP Michael Kickham.... or even Erik Surkamp (less likely)
    Surkamp hasn't pitched yet this year, he hurt his elbow and had a set back. For whatever reason, scouts don't like him as much as his stat line should indicate. Crafty, soft tossing lefty. Sickels wrote: "Doesn't throw hard buthas the statistical components of a power pitcher, excellent K/IPs and few hits, in the minors anyway. Was more tentative in the majors once the scouting reports got around and was hit hard. I think he can adjust and become a solid number four starter."

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    Head Moderator MVP glunn's Avatar
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    Willingham is a proven MLB player who is having a good season. I am not saying that the Twins should trade him, but if they do then it should be to a team that places a high value on getting a high quality right handed power hitter. If the Pirates don't crave him, then there will be other contenders who will.

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    The King In The North All-Star Nick Nelson's Avatar
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    Cole was the No. overall 1 pick last year and Taillon was the No. 2 pick the year before. I think you're setting your sights a bit high. There's no package the Twins could realistically produce that would pry either of those players away from Pittsburgh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post

    The new CBA will shake up the trade market this year. Similar players in the last year of the contract should be "cheaper" to acquire. Teams will be desparate to trade them because they will not receive comp picks at the end of the year.
    .
    My take is you're going to see middle relievers go on the cheap this year relative to other years. So thinking we'll get much for the likes of a Burton or a Capps just seems really unlikely. Teams aren't going to be getting comp picks for relievers so their value has been become much more fungible. I'm thinking more deals like the Twins pulled off for Rauch... minor league filler. Thus I think it will be a buyers market, not a sellers for relief.

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    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
    Cole was the No. overall 1 pick last year and Taillon was the No. 2 pick the year before. I think you're setting your sights a bit high. There's no package the Twins could realistically produce that would pry either of those players away from Pittsburgh.
    I tend to agree with you, which is why I don't think Willingham or Morneau will be traded to Pittsburgh. I just don't want to see them traded for a handful of B-prospects who only have a 50% chance of making a big league roster someday, let alone starting regularly. I'm open to trading them, but not for spare parts - we need a genuine, bona-fide MLB prospect in return.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MC View Post
    Thus I think it will be a buyers market, not a sellers for relief.
    You make a good point but on the other hand, with the added wildcard, more teams may be buyers which could expand the market. If, say the Reds are fighting off the Cards for the last playoff spot and they think they need to improve their bullpen, they'll probably end up overpaying someone (maybe us, maybe someone else). But someone will overpay for a bullpen arm this season. It always happens.

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    Trading away everyday players for spare parts is not how you rebuild a team. Cole and Taillon are untouchable for the assets we are willing to trade. IF the Twins trade Morneau or Willingham or both it should be for extremely high upside talent that will be in the majors shortly. Also, if those two are traded I would fully expect the Twins to use the freed up salary on a high end free agent in the offseason. If they are traded and their freed up salary is not used, then I will believe this team is not playing to win and is going into cash hoarding mode and things will begin to look a lot like the mid to late 90's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
    Cole was the No. overall 1 pick last year and Taillon was the No. 2 pick the year before. I think you're setting your sights a bit high. There's no package the Twins could realistically produce that would pry either of those players away from Pittsburgh.
    The Twins traded Wilson Ramos, their number one prospect at the time, never say never, if teams think they can make a run at the playoffs, who knows what they'll trade??

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