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Thread: Game 66 - Twins vs Pirates - 6/19/12

  1. #21
    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    So what was all this chatter earlier about the Pirates wanting to trade for Willingham or Morneau because they wanted more hitting? Looks to me like they are doing just fine.

  2. #22
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    Why isn't Casilla on 2B? Need to show a little hustle, not take it for granted that the catch will be made.

  3. #23
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbknudson View Post
    So what was all this chatter earlier about the Pirates wanting to trade for Willingham or Morneau because they wanted more hitting? Looks to me like they are doing just fine.
    They don't get to face Twins pitching every day.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnfireman View Post
    Why isn't Casilla on 2B? Need to show a little hustle, not take it for granted that the catch will be made.
    Uhh, because I think Carrol was already holding at 2nd??

  5. #25
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    Yep, sorry missed that!

  6. #26
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    What an uninspired and non-compelling performance, is anyone still of the mindset that Ryan should be thinking about the Twins contending this year?

  7. #27
    Head Moderator MVP glunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    What an uninspired and non-compelling performance, is anyone still of the mindset that Ryan should be thinking about the Twins contending this year?
    I think that many players on the team have given up in one way or another. The good news is that there should be no question about the Twins being sellers this year. Hopefully, Ryan will hold out for very favorable deals, and refuse any deals that are not great ones.

  8. #28
    Senior Member All-Star Ultima Ratio's Avatar
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    Went to the game tonight; here's some thoughts:
    1. Willingham totally misread the ball and got a very late jump on the homer in the 1st. My seat was on the 3rd base line (close to the field) and just past 3rd base itself -- and I saw, in real time, the ball hit the wall and ricochet into the stands. Not a very athletic looking play by Hammer, reminding me of the Jose Conseco ricochet for a homer, though the sun was right in the Hammer's eyes. Point being though, is that even misreading the ball initially, he had a play on the ball and could have caught it... it didn't appear to be that difficult a play.
    2. Diamond was effectively erratic, and really settled in nicely after the 1st inning jam. The bullpen looked the worst I've seen it all year. Duensing looked to be grooving pitches and not competing much.
    3. The entire team appeared lazy and uninterested at the plate except Plouffe.
    4. Thanks to Parker's analysis on Plouffe's swing, I paid special attention to his at bats, and noticed how steady his head was through his swing and how he kept on the ball for a very long time though his swing, shooting a single to the opposite field. He looks like a professional hitter now. Doumit and Morneau, on the other hand, looked overwhelmed at times. Morneau looks like the game is playing at a speed that is one click too fast for him... but I take this optimistically, that he's going to figure out how to make better ABs and be able to stay back in his swing while still being able to catch up to the fast ball. At this point it looks like he has to guess a little (off speed or fastball) pre-pitch instead of looking for pitch and reacting if you get something else. The same hitting woes go for Doumit.
    5. Doumit is a horrible defensive player. Of course the following is to be expected, but many Pirates fans 'said' they were happy to be rid of him, getting on his weak ABs tonight and jeering especially loud on the double steel. This was already after the pirates took a bag on Doumit earlier. I couldn't believe how many pitches he mishandled. Balls just jumped out of his mit at times.
    6. It was hot and we lost but I had a great time getting my first glimpse of Diamond. I'm planning on going to the next two games as well.
    7. I hope Bert circled me
    8. PNC park is still the most beautiful ballpark (that I've been to).
    Last edited by Ultima Ratio; 06-19-2012 at 11:36 PM.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member All-Star Ultima Ratio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    On Revere not scoring, I still have questions about Liddle's effectiveness at 3rd but it is so hard to tell anything on TV. I hope that one of these days some of the people who go to a lot of games will comment on what they observe from him.
    Was at the game and immediately thought Revere would score, but Hammer's single was well hit and on a bead to McCutchen. It must have only 2 or 3 hopped before getting to McCutchen and he's got a rifle. Revere also did not get a super jump on the ball, arriving at 3rd right when McCutchen was transferring the ball from glove to hand. It may been close and worth the risk, but it looked like Revere would out with an accurate throw. I agree, however, that Liddle's decisions have been less that impressive and without much intention and authority.
    Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
    Was at the game and immediately thought Revere would score, but Hammer's single was well hit and on a bead to McCutchen. It must have only 2 or 3 hopped before getting to McCutchen and he's got a rifle. Revere also did not get a super jump on the ball, arriving at 3rd right when McCutchen was transferring the ball from glove to hand. It may been close and worth the risk, but it looked like Revere would out with an accurate throw. I agree, however, that Liddle's decisions have been less that impressive and without much intention and authority.
    Questions for you, UR. Dick and Bert brought up the fact that the Pirates catchers have only thrown out an incredible 4 of 53 baserunners attempting to steal. With the Pirates stealing at will on Doumit, what was holding Gardy back from sending his runners at will?

    Question 2: How do you like PNC in person? I've seen only the exterior in person, looks like a great ballpark.

  11. #31
    Senior Member All-Star Ultima Ratio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Questions for you, UR. Dick and Bert brought up the fact that the Pirates catchers have only thrown out an incredible 4 of 53 baserunners attempting to steal. With the Pirates stealing at will on Doumit, what was holding Gardy back from sending his runners at will?

    Question 2: How do you like PNC in person? I've seen only the exterior in person, looks like a great ballpark.
    @1: Revere did take a bag but I don't have a good answer other than to take a look at who was on 1st at the time. Plouffe had a couple opportunities and Carroll 1 or 2 as well (I can't remember for sure which), but I think Plouffe has been thrown out a couple times recently, so unless it's Revere or Span on 1st, I don't seem much stealing with Carroll, Plouffe or Dozier. Casilla, though, would also get a green light if he had the opportunity. Also, perhaps Correia has a smaller/quicker step to home than the rest of the Pirates staff. I don't know.

    @2: I love the vista from the stadium: eclectic and impressive building and skyscrapers just beyond center field it seems, the Clemente bridge, the walk there and back passing the pirates mural, painted under the boulevard of the allies. I love how close one is to the field no matter where one's seat is -- it's very intimate. I love how I can get great tickets much cheaper than at other stadiums. Of course, I would trade it all to live near Target field, but that's just to see my team play more often.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
    1. Willingham totally misread the ball and got a very late jump on the homer in the 1st. My seat was on the 3rd base line (close to the field) and just past 3rd base itself -- and I saw, in real time, the ball hit the wall and ricochet into the stands. Not a very athletic looking play by Hammer, reminding me of the Jose Conseco ricochet for a homer, though the sun was right in the Hammer's eyes. Point being though, is that even misreading the ball initially, he had a play on the ball and could have caught it... it didn't appear to be that difficult a play.
    3. The entire team appeared lazy and uninterested at the plate except Plouffe.
    5. Doumit is a horrible defensive player. Of course the following is to be expected, but many Pirates fans 'said' they were happy to be rid of him, getting on his weak ABs tonight and jeering especially loud on the double steel. This was already after the pirates took a bag on Doumit earlier. I couldn't believe how many pitches he mishandled. Balls just jumped out of his mit at times.
    8. PNC park is still the most beautiful ballpark (that I've been to).
    1) From the various replays, it appeared to me that he lost the ball for just a moment in the sun, then going back took his eye off to find the wall and then didn't have time to re-react and find the ball. I agree that a good initial reaction makes it a catch, but given his rush at the end, I don't think he was then likely to make the play. If that makes sense.
    3) I'm curious how they appeared lazy and uninterested.
    5) I've always found it difficult with my level of experience and knowledge to visually judge a catcher's abilities for the most part. So you may be right about him being generally bad. I will say that the double-steal was not on Doumit. At all. That was on the pitcher.
    8) As mentioned in the thread about all the ballparks, I don't think you will be to a better ballpark. It's tops. I actually get excited just to see it on TV since I was there last year. It's choice.

  13. #33
    Senior Member All-Star Ultima Ratio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDog View Post
    1) From the various replays, it appeared to me that he lost the ball for just a moment in the sun, then going back took his eye off to find the wall and then didn't have time to re-react and find the ball. I agree that a good initial reaction makes it a catch, but given his rush at the end, I don't think he was then likely to make the play. If that makes sense.
    3) I'm curious how they appeared lazy and uninterested.
    5) I've always found it difficult with my level of experience and knowledge to visually judge a catcher's abilities for the most part. So you may be right about him being generally bad. I will say that the double-steal was not on Doumit. At all. That was on the pitcher.
    8) As mentioned in the thread about all the ballparks, I don't think you will be to a better ballpark. It's tops. I actually get excited just to see it on TV since I was there last year. It's choice.
    @1: Yeah, he did lose it right away, but he still got back to the wall in time. I'm just guessing the Span and Revere make that catch all things begin equal (losing the ball initially).
    @3: This is totally subjective because I was right behind the plate and not able to see exactly how they were being pitched. I did see them getting behind too many counts, and not because they were fooled by pitches, but not timing them correctly and rushing. Does that make sense? The opposing pitcher was not the best they've faced by far, but maybe he was pitching over his head, I can't say without more info.
    @5: I used to catch, not that that provides any privileged knowledge, but I do pay attention to the position defensively. It looked like Harrison got a huge jump on Diamond when stealing second. I agree that the pitcher plays the greatest role in giving the catch the chance to throw a runner out, so Doumit is not to blame of that. The same might be true of the double steel, though I didn't see Harrison get a huge lead or jump that time, thus I put it on Doumit. I could be wrong about the lead and jump though --again, my seats were not behind the plate where I could better make this determination. I did see many dropped balls, however... for no reason, which regardless if runners advanced, it just looks lazy, sluggish and does not help you picker when trying to frame a pitch if it pops out of your mit. He doesn't look very athletic, but rather kinda boorish behind the plate. That's just what I saw. I hope Mauer is back in the lineup tomorrow.
    Last edited by Ultima Ratio; 06-20-2012 at 12:25 AM.
    Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

  14. #34
    Head Moderator MVP glunn's Avatar
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    It must be difficult to keep your focus when the team has become a "cellar dweller", as any playoff hopes get more and more distant with each terrible game played. It's not surprising that a losing mentality seems to be developing.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
    @1: I'm just guessing the Span and Revere make that catch all things begin equal (losing the ball initially).
    @5: It looked like Harrison got a huge jump on Diamond when stealing second. I agree that the pitcher plays the greatest role in giving the catch the chance to throw a runner out, so Doumit is not to blame of that. The same might be true of the double steel, though I didn't see Harrison get a huge lead or jump that time, thus I put it on Doumit. ...I hope Mauer is back in the lineup tomorrow.
    1) Agreed that many others including Span or Revere likely make the catch. I even agree that Hammer should have. I think I was just saying I don't think it was that easy for him on that particular play because of the look away from the ball near the end (which wouldn't have been necessary or as at a crucial a moment had he not lost it, gotten a good jump, and been faster...haha). I think we're saying about the same thing here.
    5) On the double steal, both Bremer and Blyleven went on a while about how Diamond never really even checked the runner at second. He got a HUGE jump. Couldn't agree more about Mauer hopefully being in the lineup today, though. I expect he'll get another day without having the DH available, though. But only a guess.

  16. #36
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    Thanks UR for responding about Liddle and for all of the info you provided in your posts. Enjoyed the back and forth at the end of this thread.

    And with regard to Glunn's comment: It must be difficult to keep your focus when the team has become a "cellar dweller", as any playoff hopes get more and more distant with each terrible game played.

    Is this a reason if at all possible to keep rotating in some minor leaguers (to the extent you can do so without screwing up service time)? It seems to me that we saw last year and again this year that the "youngsters" bring a new enthusiasm and spark. Although in both years the improved winning percentage was against mediocre teams, it does seem like the "thrill" of being promoted has a short-term positive effect before the team seems to wear the newby down to dullness.

    Just wondering if there is some way to keep a spark of enthusiasm alive on this team (before they wear down Plouffe and Revere, too, although I'm not sure it would ever be possible to wear down Revere).

  17. #37
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glunn View Post
    It must be difficult to keep your focus when the team has become a "cellar dweller", as any playoff hopes get more and more distant with each terrible game played. It's not surprising that a losing mentality seems to be developing.
    Which loss of focus are you referring to? Willingham's lost fly ball? My mind reading skills must not be as good as yours; is the losing mentality process "gee, that ball's in the sun, sometimes I can make that play, but wait, we're a last place team, guess I'll take my eye off of it"? I would have thought there'd be some different evidence for it developing, than that.
    Last edited by ashburyjohn; 06-20-2012 at 05:36 PM.

  18. #38
    Head Moderator MVP glunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashburyjohn View Post
    Which loss of focus are you referring to? Willingham's lost fly ball? My mind reading skills must not be as good as yours; is the losing mentality process "gee, that ball's in the sun, sometimes I can make that play, but wait, we're a last place team, guess I'll take my eye off of it"? I would have thought there'd be some different evidence for it developing, than that.
    This is just my subjective impression, but it seems to me that Willingham misses some plays in the outfield that he was capable of making, and I was reacting to the comment of Ultima, who was at the game and said:

    Ultima: 1. Willingham totally misread the ball and got a very late jump on the homer in the 1st. My seat was on the 3rd base line (close to the field) and just past 3rd base itself -- and I saw, in real time, the ball hit the wall and ricochet into the stands. Not a very athletic looking play by Hammer, reminding me of the Jose Conseco ricochet for a homer, though the sun was right in the Hammer's eyes. Point being though, is that even misreading the ball initially, he had a play on the ball and could have caught it... it didn't appear to be that difficult a play.

    This is subjective, but it seems to me that if the Twins were tied for first in the division -- in a tight playoff race, Willingham would have been more likely to make that catch. This is not a criticism of Willingham -- I think that it is difficult psychologically to give 110% when your team has a very remote chance of making the postseason and you are caught in a losing streak.

    I think that being on a losing team that is sucking the cellar floor also has a negative effect on hitters, some more than others. I wonder if anyone has stats on the effect of a player moving from a contender to a cellar dweller, and vice-versa.

  19. #39
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glunn View Post
    This is subjective, but it seems to me that if the Twins were tied for first in the division -- in a tight playoff race, Willingham would have been more likely to make that catch.
    I wonder what Willingham would say if someone believed this enough to say it to his face.

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