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Thread: AA and AAA

  1. #41
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    I mean I know such pieces like Rene Rivera, Clete Thomas, and Michael Hollimon are so valuable to have hanging around . . .

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by shanewahl View Post
    Damn, a lot of things to respond to. A lot of good thoughts here. So the top of the New Britain lineup: Hicks, Herrmann, Arcia, Colabello, and Bigley is on a roll right now. I personally would like to see them promote everyone except for Arcia (maybe that's ironic since he is the best prospect . . . but perhaps players like him don't need to bother with AAA). The other four certainly need to advance even that small step, see some closer-to-the-majors, pitching, etc. This is starting to look a little like the New Britain situation last year. You know: Dozier, Benson, Parmelee, Herrmann, and Solarte . . . . how did not promoting to AAA appropriately turn out there, again??!!
    What is interesting is I agree, but think Arcia is probably the most ready of your aformentioned prospects to make the jump to the majors from a hitting standpoint. Where I would hesitate in promoting everyone but Arcia is that leaves him little protection in that lineup. Pitchers won't have to pitch to him which could hurt his development in commanding the strike zone as a hitter. All premier players want to help their team, and to put a young hitter who seems to command the strike zone in a situation where teams don't have to throw him strikes could very well lead to him expanding his strike zone in order to try an make an impact in the game as is expected of him. It might be a bit far fetched, but I have seen it happen.

    I am curious to see what Hicks does if promoted to AAA where there are less talented pitchers but ones who are more technically sound. In my opinion he either struggles because pitchers can bait him to chasing pitches outside of the zone or he blows up because he is able to crush more balls coming into the zone.

    All in all, I guess I would prefer to see the Twins move these guys up sooner if they aren't comfortable allowing them to make the jump from AA to the Majors. I understand the Twins don't want to call guys up to sit the bench, but it isn't like we are fielding a hugely competitive major league club right now. If the Twins do trade Span, I would love to see what Arcia could do in RF if the Twins think he can consistently lay off pitches outside the strike zone.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by shanewahl View Post
    I mean I know such pieces like Rene Rivera, Clete Thomas, and Michael Hollimon are so valuable to have hanging around . . .
    Agreed

  4. #44
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chopper0080 View Post
    What is interesting is I agree, but think Arcia is probably the most ready of your aformentioned prospects to make the jump to the majors from a hitting standpoint. Where I would hesitate in promoting everyone but Arcia is that leaves him little protection in that lineup. Pitchers won't have to pitch to him which could hurt his development in commanding the strike zone as a hitter. All premier players want to help their team, and to put a young hitter who seems to command the strike zone in a situation where teams don't have to throw him strikes could very well lead to him expanding his strike zone in order to try an make an impact in the game as is expected of him. It might be a bit far fetched, but I have seen it happen.

    I am curious to see what Hicks does if promoted to AAA where there are less talented pitchers but ones who are more technically sound. In my opinion he either struggles because pitchers can bait him to chasing pitches outside of the zone or he blows up because he is able to crush more balls coming into the zone.

    All in all, I guess I would prefer to see the Twins move these guys up sooner if they aren't comfortable allowing them to make the jump from AA to the Majors. I understand the Twins don't want to call guys up to sit the bench, but it isn't like we are fielding a hugely competitive major league club right now. If the Twins do trade Span, I would love to see what Arcia could do in RF if the Twins think he can consistently lay off pitches outside the strike zone.
    Yeah, Arcia is the only player in the organization above Beloit who I can see it being potentially ok to have jump AAA altogether.

    I am not sure if this has been answered yet, but are the pitchers in AAA or AA more like those in the majors? Maybe that's a ridiculous question, but I cannot imagine the answer being AA. At the very least, those in AAA are much like 4-5 starters in the majors, right?

    I find it hard to believe that most players wouldn't benefit more from consistent promotions up to AAA instead of playing them for 2 years or more at any level along the way, including AA. I understand that there are playing-time concerns, especially with catchers and with areas of some depth (OF, for the Twins), that makes it not totally clear-cut. Yet I still look at that 2011 New Britain lineup and what has become of it in 2012. I don't want a repeat of 2012 in 2013.

  5. #45
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Addendum and clarification: I mean consistent promotions if they are producing. I actually think the Twins did well with Benson and Parmelee all the way until about late July or early August last year. They've done well with Hicks so far as well. I don't want to see that fall apart (again).

  6. #46
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanewahl View Post
    Addendum and clarification: I mean consistent promotions if they are producing. I actually think the Twins did well with Benson and Parmelee all the way until about late July or early August last year. They've done well with Hicks so far as well. I don't want to see that fall apart (again).
    I would think communication would go a long way here... just me. But when you give a kid a September call up, the advice is simple: this is to get a look at you and make assessments for improvement. Expect to spend next year in AAA, even if you do well.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by shanewahl View Post
    Yeah, Arcia is the only player in the organization above Beloit who I can see it being potentially ok to have jump AAA altogether.

    I am not sure if this has been answered yet, but are the pitchers in AAA or AA more like those in the majors? Maybe that's a ridiculous question, but I cannot imagine the answer being AA. At the very least, those in AAA are much like 4-5 starters in the majors, right?

    I find it hard to believe that most players wouldn't benefit more from consistent promotions up to AAA instead of playing them for 2 years or more at any level along the way, including AA. I understand that there are playing-time concerns, especially with catchers and with areas of some depth (OF, for the Twins), that makes it not totally clear-cut. Yet I still look at that 2011 New Britain lineup and what has become of it in 2012. I don't want a repeat of 2012 in 2013.
    This is purely my opinion, but I believe in AA, hitters face major league talent, and in AAA, hitters face major league approaches. It has always been my belief that you can tell when a pitcher is ready to jump to the majors if he can get guys to swing and miss on pitches in the strike zone consistently. Pitchers at AA generally feast on batters who do not make them do this because of their less refined approaches as a hitter which is a reason as I see AA being a pitchers league. What this means as a batter is if he can show he can consistently force these talented pitchers to pitch into the strike zone and then execute against those pitches, he is pretty close to major league ready. If a player can't do this consistently or does, but isn't conecting as much as he should (just missing pitches) then he probably needs to move to AAA where he should get more pitches in the zone, but with less electric stuff to where he can work on making solid contact and gaining confidence against fringe major league talent.

    So yes, time in AAA can be very valuable to hitters and very necessary for them to build confidence. However, I don't feel top hitters need to spend time in AAA if they can generate walks and hit consistently at the AA level.

  8. #48
    AA is pretty even competitvely for all the players. But still, you might be lucky if half the guys on New Brits roster this year, for example, get a major league inning of play. AAA is for guys on the cusp of being a major league regular, sharing roster space with guys who can come up and be that extra infielder, 4th outfielder, back of the line starter or emergency bullpen guy -- players who can hold their own briefly in the majors while the backups already in the majors move to more formidable roles...and the timing is usually short. You bring up Burroughs to sit on the bench, but keep Parmelee playing everyday, for example. You bring up Parmelee to play everyday if your first abseman goes down. If an outfielder goes down for say two weeks, you let Mastro play everyday and bring up a Carson or Wilkin to back him up. If the outfielder goes down for the rest of the season, then maybe you bring up Benson to see how he plays everyday until you can't stand it anymore. And you often get short-term great results from AAAA guys because they try so hard to remain in the majors, but eventually they peter out and become AAAA fodder again.

  9. #49
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Again, I agree that top hitters can jump. And I still say that if competition is even marginally better in AAA, then players should be promoted to AAA before we think they are MLB ready. See Ryan Howard.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by shanewahl View Post
    Again, I agree that top hitters can jump. And I still say that if competition is even marginally better in AAA, then players should be promoted to AAA before we think they are MLB ready. See Ryan Howard.
    I totally agree. AAA is great to build up hitters confidence before heading to the bigs because the get more pitches inthe zone to hit and the stuff is not quite as nasty.

  11. #51
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Is there really any reason, if the Twins promote Evan Bigley to AAA, why Aaron Hicks, Chris Herrmann, Oswaldo Arcia, Chris Colabello, Joe Benson, and Deibinson Romero shouldn't be promoted as well? Are they really simply going to use AA as the testing ground? I know Plouffe is an odd case, but compare him to Chris Parmelee and to Ben Revere 2011.

    And one can just look at other players throughout baseball to see that most of them spent at least a few hundred plate appearances at AAA (aside from truly elite players). This is frustrating to me. What is going to be the status next year for these guys? Chris Parmeleed?

  12. #52
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Kirby_Waved_At_Me's Avatar
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    It was mentioned way back in this thread, but a big part of AAA rosters are held for guys that are injury insurance for the Major league team. The result of that is that guys like Clete Thomas, Rene Rivera, Sean Burroughs, etc are getting regular at bats at AAA over top prospects so they can be ready to fill in at the major league level should the need arise.
    And because these players (AAAA or retreads or whatever you want to call them) are taking up at bats, the best prospects are staying a level lower so they can play everyday and develop.
    It's almost like the insistence to carry three catchers on the MLB team - just in case several players are injured in a row, the Twins (and it seems, most if not all of the MLB teams) would rather call up someone like Thomas, Rivera, Burroughs instead of calling up a top prospect. It keeps the team from having to A) have a guy play too far above his development level and B) be forced to start their MLB service time early.
    I don't necessarily agree that the roster filler in AAA is the most efficient way to develop the young prospects, but I get why teams operate that way. The Twins seem to have had less high-impact players that have deserved the aggressive promotion. There are some players in the system now that might change that trend a bit and see time at AAA and the majors sooner.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by shanewahl View Post
    Is there really any reason, if the Twins promote Evan Bigley to AAA, why Aaron Hicks, Chris Herrmann, Oswaldo Arcia, Chris Colabello, Joe Benson, and Deibinson Romero shouldn't be promoted as well? Are they really simply going to use AA as the testing ground? I know Plouffe is an odd case, but compare him to Chris Parmelee and to Ben Revere 2011.

    And one can just look at other players throughout baseball to see that most of them spent at least a few hundred plate appearances at AAA (aside from truly elite players). This is frustrating to me. What is going to be the status next year for these guys? Chris Parmeleed?
    Probably because the Twins are more comfortable with Hicks, Benson and Arcia jumping straight to the majors from AA and keeping giving their fringe roster players in AAA at bats, which is probably what they view Bigley as right now. A guy who may develop into a major league player, but they want to give more at bats at an upper level.

  14. #54
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chopper0080 View Post
    Probably because the Twins are more comfortable with Hicks, Benson and Arcia jumping straight to the majors from AA and keeping giving their fringe roster players in AAA at bats, which is probably what they view Bigley as right now. A guy who may develop into a major league player, but they want to give more at bats at an upper level.
    Probably correct about Bigley. I wonder--how far do we have to go back to find a Twins AA-to-MLB success story other than Joe Mauer?

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by shanewahl View Post
    Probably correct about Bigley. I wonder--how far do we have to go back to find a Twins AA-to-MLB success story other than Joe Mauer?
    Probably awhile. Remember that during tha majority of the past 12 years we have been pretty competitive and so we haven't had spots to jump players from AA to the Bigs. Also, you could argue the Twins have the best crop of bats in it's mid level system that it has had in a long time.

    Ultimately, I believe we will see these three called up in Sept and then given a chance to battle for an outfield spot or two next Spring with the losers replacing those filler outfielders who are at AAA this year. This is one reason I believe if Span/Revere isn't traded by the deadline, I would expect one of them to be traded in the offseason for a pitcher. This would allow the Twins to have Willingham, Span/Revere, Mastroianni/Bigley, and Hicks/Benson/Arcia all battling for the three OF spots, a DH spot, and a reserve spot with the rest getting time at AAA. Not a terrible plan, and it keeps players getting consistent at bats and talent/flexability on both rosters.

  16. #56
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    There are a bunch of good reasons not to move Arcia, Benson, Hicks, et al en mass to AAA :
    1. The AAA guys are better at filling in at MLB. Most of the roster has already logged time in the bigs this year.
    2. With the exception of Arcia, none of those players is putting up truly dominant numbers. And even Arcia has work to do against lefties. Hicks has six fielding errors.
    3. They don't have enough worthy candidates in Fort Myers to replace them. Lance Ray, Angel Morales, Daniel Ortiz. None have an OPS above .750.
    4. New Britain is playoff bound. And since staying in AA is not harmful to their development, why not let them play and win together there?

  17. #57
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Benson started the year in AAA, and if he continues to hit in AA, I think it's only fair to give him more at bats there... I tend to agree on Arcia and Hicks. Let them both finish the year in NB.

  18. #58
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    There are a bunch of good reasons not to move Arcia, Benson, Hicks, et al en mass to AAA :
    1. The AAA guys are better at filling in at MLB. Most of the roster has already logged time in the bigs this year.
    2. With the exception of Arcia, none of those players is putting up truly dominant numbers. And even Arcia has work to do against lefties. Hicks has six fielding errors.
    3. They don't have enough worthy candidates in Fort Myers to replace them. Lance Ray, Angel Morales, Daniel Ortiz. None have an OPS above .750.
    4. New Britain is playoff bound. And since staying in AA is not harmful to their development, why not let them play and win together there?
    So Ben Revere 2011 and Chris Parmelee 2012 were just fine with the AA-to-MLB jump, right? The question still stands: outside of Mauer, name a AA-to-MLB jump that has worked out well for the Twins? Going back to the 80s?.

    Hicks is having a very good year and Herrmann is the one catching prospect above low-A that is achieving at all. Clete Thomas and Rene Rivera matter more at AAA than Hicks and Herrmann? please.

  19. #59
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chopper0080 View Post
    Probably awhile. Remember that during tha majority of the past 12 years we have been pretty competitive and so we haven't had spots to jump players from AA to the Bigs. Also, you could argue the Twins have the best crop of bats in it's mid level system that it has had in a long time.

    Ultimately, I believe we will see these three called up in Sept and then given a chance to battle for an outfield spot or two next Spring with the losers replacing those filler outfielders who are at AAA this year. This is one reason I believe if Span/Revere isn't traded by the deadline, I would expect one of them to be traded in the offseason for a pitcher. This would allow the Twins to have Willingham, Span/Revere, Mastroianni/Bigley, and Hicks/Benson/Arcia all battling for the three OF spots, a DH spot, and a reserve spot with the rest getting time at AAA. Not a terrible plan, and it keeps players getting consistent at bats and talent/flexability on both rosters.
    I agree with the idea, but it just hasn't worked so far (of late). Parmelee's 2012 season is a damn disaster. What a waste. Same with Tosoni and even Revere last year. I am flabbergasted by the notion that Dozier, Parmelee, Solarte, Benson, and Herrmann were better off in 2011 not getting promoted to AAA at the beginning of August so they could see the next level of pitching and build towards facing MLB pitching this year. Christ, Solarte was lost either because of the Twins being stupid or his awareness that the Twins promote so damn slowly and inappropriately at times.

    Would anyone seriously look at this organization and say that Dozier, Parmelee, and Benson wouldn't have benefitted from 100 PAs at AAA last year?

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanewahl View Post
    I. Christ, Solarte was lost either because of the Twins being stupid or his awareness that the Twins promote so damn slowly and inappropriately at times.
    ?
    Solarte? done nothing with Texas in the PCL which I believe to be a hitter's league. Griping to gripe?

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