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Thread: Article: Twins vs White Sox, 07-25-2012, 1:10pm

  1. #141
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by minn55441 View Post
    So, If I have this correctly the most talented team wins the world series every year? Have the Yankee's just bought the wrong talent?
    No, but the most talented teams do have the tendency to make the playoffs, where short series are a completely different animal.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ballÖ and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  2. #142
    Senior Member All-Star Ultima Ratio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinsnorth49 View Post
    The mental approach and understanding of any game is a talent, it's not voodoo.
    To now lump talent with a winning attitude/previous success/mental fortitude/and all mental/and all other tough to measure but no less real causes of success at this point is sophistry. So is Liriano talented or not?
    Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by cr9617 View Post
    I can't wait until someone chimes in and defends Blackie this time around. Something like.....'when healthy, Blackburn is a solid fourth or fifth starter on a good team. He just needs to settle down and find his groove, and he will be just like he was back in 08 and 09.'
    Be sure to tune in for Gardy's post game interview!

  4. #144
    One could argue that is why the short series are so much fun, much harder to predict the outcome.

  5. #145
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Boom Boom's Avatar
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    When I look at what the Twins did this last offseason to try and right the ship, I'm seeing a lot of similarities to the 2000s Royals.

    We're not that far away, we just need to pick up a few mid-level free agents. Let's go get Gil Meche, Brett Tomko, Jose Guillen and Juan Cruz.

    They're all decent players, but they're stopgaps that don't fix the problem.
    Last edited by Boom Boom; 07-25-2012 at 03:27 PM.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbknudson View Post
    Herb Brooks didn't pick the most talented players at the training camp, he picked the players that would best fit into the system he was going to build.
    First off were talking a one game sample size, replay that game 100 times and the Russians win 99 of them.

    Secondly, isn't picking players that fit best in a system still about talent? He picked the players that would succeed in the system he was running or offense or whatever the **** hockey does.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbknudson View Post
    I don't have gamecenter or anything on so I can't see where they tracked; I was just going by what I happened to catch on replays for hits. It looked to me like some of them were kept down in the zone and to the sides of the plate, and yet still got hammered.

    That last homer, however, was a different matter.
    There is no silver lining to be found in this guy. Stop looking...

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    When I look at what the Twins did this last offseason to try and right the ship, I'm seeing a lot of similarities to the 2000s Royals.

    We're not that far away, we just need to pick up a few mid-level free agents. Let's go get Gil Meche, Brett Tomko, Jose Guillen and Juan Cruz. They're all decent players, but they're stopgaps that don't fix the problem.
    Last off season, most the people I know, blamed the Twins record on injuries and some genuinely thought it was a simple fix away. This season it is much easier to see this team isn't a quick fix from contention and hopefully management makes decisions accordingly.

  9. #149
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbknudson View Post
    Yes, talent is a necessary component of success, but it is not a guarantee of success. That talent also has to be fit into a system that allows it become more than the sum of the individual parts. You need team chemistry and synergy. This debate reminds me of the 1980 winter olympics and the U.S. hockey team. Herb Brooks didn't pick the most talented players at the training camp, he picked the players that would best fit into the system he was going to build. Did they have individual talent? Absolutely. But purely on an individual basis they were NOT the most talented hockey players at Lake Placid. Put together in the right way, though, they did become the most talented team in those games.
    Anything can happen in one game, in a short tournament, especially in hockey. Anyway, the US beat the Finns to win the gold. In the mid to late nineties Canada decided they would go down the picking the players who best fit the system road in international hockey and they sucked. Once they decided to just take the best players and work the system to fit them, they have been much more successful.

    Talent first, everything else next.

  10. #150
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
    To now lump talent with a winning attitude/previous success/mental fortitude/and all mental/and all other tough to measure but no less real causes of success at this point is sophistry. So is Liriano talented or not?
    Apparently not or we wouldn't be looking to trade him.

  11. #151
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer minn55441's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hijinks View Post
    Last off season, most the people I know, blamed the Twins record on injuries and some genuinely thought it was a simple fix away. This season it is much easier to see this team isn't a quick fix from contention and hopefully management makes decisions accordingly.
    the quick fix is 5 new starters. The every day lineup is competitive, maybe not to the level of making a serious run in Oct, but this team would look a lot different with some good starting pitching. Can you imagine a team where diamond was our 5th starter? A guy that was a complete surprise, that we weren't counting on?

  12. #152
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Boom Boom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
    To now lump talent with a winning attitude/previous success/mental fortitude/and all mental/and all other tough to measure but no less real causes of success at this point is sophistry. So is Liriano talented or not?
    You're presuming that "talent" means "physical talent".

    Carlos Gomez is physically more talented than Denard Span, but on the whole Span is more talented than Gomez, for all the reasons you outlined.

  13. #153
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    You're presuming that "talent" means "physical talent".

    Carlos Gomez is physically more talented than Denard Span, but on the whole Span is more talented than Gomez, for all the reasons you outlined.

    Thank you

  14. #154
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer minn55441's Avatar
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    Hanley Ramirez was the most talented player traded so far this season. Will the Dodgers win even more games now that they have more talent? Ozzie couldn't make all of that talent work in Miami, so they are now trading away pieces. They aren't trading away the guys "without talent", they are trading away the guys "with talent" that didn't fit.

    Managers play a huge role in baseball, because the teams with the most talent don't always win. The managers that get the most out of their players win games.

  15. #155
    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinsnorth49 View Post
    Anything can happen in one game, in a short tournament, especially in hockey. Anyway, the US beat the Finns to win the gold. In the mid to late nineties Canada decided they would go down the picking the players who best fit the system road in international hockey and they sucked. Once they decided to just take the best players and work the system to fit them, they have been much more successful.

    Talent first, everything else next.
    Yes, I know that, I watched the games, all of them, and I stand by my assessment that their gold medal was not a fluke due to luck or small sample size - they were the best team at the tournament, and not because they had the best players.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by minn55441 View Post
    the quick fix is 5 new starters. The every day lineup is competitive, maybe not to the level of making a serious run in Oct, but this team would look a lot different with some good starting pitching. Can you imagine a team where diamond was our 5th starter? A guy that was a complete surprise, that we weren't counting on?
    I agree, I just don't see how we would acquire 4 more quality pitchers. Diamond has been great and hopefully will continue to be good next year. The Pohlads would have to spend a significant amount of money to sign free agents and history would indicate the are not likely to do that. Unless I am missing a number of significant prospects being ready next year, it doesn't seem like a fix that will occur during the offseason but more likely over the next few years.

  17. #157
    Senior Member All-Star Ultima Ratio's Avatar
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    Just to be clear for those who've just joined the thread, while the forgoing argument has gone off the rails, the original question was this:

    What's the best way to make the Twins a competitive team again?

    Some have said that the Twins should try to lose for several years (4+) in order to accumulate higher draft picks during that time. Some us believe that a culture of losing is more harmful in the short and long run, pointing to the Pirates and Royals as evidence that losing in contagious and infectious, requiring decades to change... even with numerous high draft picks. There are further considerations about revenue and fan support to consider that no one has mentioned.
    Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
    Just to be clear for those who've just joined the thread, while the forgoing argument has gone off the rails, the original question was this:

    What's the best way to make the Twins a competitive team again?

    Some have said that the Twins should try to lose for several years (4+) in order to accumulate higher draft picks during that time. Some us believe that a culture of losing is more harmful in the short and long run, pointing to the Pirates and Royals as evidence that losing in contagious and infectious, requiring decades to change... even with numerous high draft picks. There are further considerations about revenue and fan support to consider that no one has mentioned.
    No way do you try to lose for years, but talent needs to be built through trades and drafts. Just don't think losing for years does much, maybe in the NFL it could be considered a strategy but it just takes far too long to develop talent in the MLB. Also the drop in attendance would lower revenue to the point you could no longer hold on to the talent you develop.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    You're presuming that "talent" means "physical talent".

    Carlos Gomez is physically more talented than Denard Span, but on the whole Span is more talented than Gomez, for all the reasons you outlined.
    If you look back through the thread, you'll see that you are agreeing with me on this point but not trying to confuse by calling both measurable stats = talent as well as the immeasurable though equally real causes of success.
    Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hijinks View Post
    No way do you try to lose for years, but talent needs to be built through trades and drafts. Just don't think losing for years does much, maybe in the NFL it could be considered a strategy but it just takes far too long to develop talent in the MLB. Also the drop in attendance would lower revenue to the point you could no longer hold on to the talent you develop.
    Yep
    Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

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