Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 84

Thread: Article: What if the Twins do Nothing Today?

  1. #41
    Super Moderator All-Star
    Posts
    3,426
    Like
    169
    Liked 314 Times in 186 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    I think that here is part of the root of the problem with this team:


    a. you cannot cut the season in chunks look at the best chunk and hope that what happened then is the "truth". They did that last season, stayed put at the deadline and ended up losing 99. Lesson not learned?

    b. if we are ok with them making the post-season instead of being competitive in the post-season and making and winning the World Series, it will never happen.


    Back to the original premise, if they do nothing, it will reinforce my belief that for the Twins to win (see b. above - which have not done until MacPhail was the GM) this whole front office team needs to go from the top to the bottom and new blood needs to come...

    a. This is true, but at the same point, I think your outlook also obfuscates the truth. That turn around coincided with dumping a number of players and having others move into those roles... Since then, they've been a much better team. I don't think anyone is saying "stand pat," but they do recognizes that there are some legitimate pieces to build with.

    b. I agree 100% with this. I don't like the "well let's just get there" attitude. The playoffs are a stepping stone to achieving a goal. I do think that they need to be realistic about it in that they need to be adding pitching big time... A decent rotation and suddenly they are in contention. It doesn't account for all the holes on this team, but it's one piece... and a big one that needs fixing.

  2. #42
    Senior Member All-Star Winston Smith's Avatar
    Posts
    1,108
    Like
    44
    Liked 155 Times in 80 Posts
    In 2006 they were a very good team and went 0-3 in the playoffs. Since that time, the 2007 season thru now the Twins are 455-459, 914 games not a small sample size. When you consider they play in the Central which tends to be a weaker division, that isn't a record of a great franchise. (73-127 against the East)
    To think things are ok and we aren't that far away is silly at best and the record over the last 5 plus years points to a team content with being mediocre.

  3. #43
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
    Posts
    3,616
    Like
    37
    Liked 184 Times in 104 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    In 2006 they were a very good team and went 0-3 in the playoffs. Since that time, the 2007 season thru now the Twins are 455-459, 914 games not a small sample size. When you consider they play in the Central which tends to be a weaker division, that isn't a record of a great franchise. (73-127 against the East)
    To think things are ok and we aren't that far away is silly at best and the record over the last 5 plus years points to a team content with being mediocre.
    What was there record from 2007 to 2010?

    These random numbers you are throwing out are next to pointless seeing how the Twins had several good seasons (some great) followed up by two clunkers in 2011, 2012.

    The record they had in 2008 has zero to do with their 2012 record.

  4. #44
    Senior Member All-Star Jim Crikket's Avatar
    Posts
    1,093
    Like
    15
    Liked 122 Times in 61 Posts
    Blog Entries
    77
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Coming into the year I thought they would win anywhere between 78-83 games, I didn't expect the rotation to be this bad, but the offense and bullpen have been better than what I thought. They still have a shot to win 78 games.
    I'm really not too concerned with whether the Twins win 78 games this year or 58. At this point, their final record is immaterial. August should be about getting marginal players enough innings to fairly evaluate whether they should be part of the plans for 2013 and September should be about giving some young players some opportunities to show they should get some consideration next year, too. If that means you lose more games than you would with your A line up out there every day, so be it.

    I know losing 100+ games will just give some folks more ammunition to blast the front office and field management, but the decision makers will know it was still the right approach.
    I opine about the Twins and Kernels regularly at Knuckleballsblog.com while my alter ego, SD Buhr covers the Kernels for MetroSportsReport.com.

    ~You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant~

  5. #45
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    3,171
    Like
    19
    Liked 198 Times in 125 Posts
    I'd like to see the Twins push to move Burnett and hope that some GM likes his 1.16 WHIP and 2.90 ERA. I'd move him for just about anything, I don't want him in the bullpen going forward. He's getting the job done now but I don't know how. I think going forward he's going to do more harm than good with the awful K/9 rate.

  6. #46
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
    Posts
    5,932
    Like
    46
    Liked 204 Times in 108 Posts
    Blog Entries
    515
    Listen, no one is saying that this is a playoff team as is. No one is saying that the first six weeks of the season didn't matter. It does. But so do that last 65 games. Add some pitching, and they may not be all that far from being much improved and contending. Not this year, but next year, if certain things happen.

    Also, I 100% agree that the Twins should be going after high-ceiling pitching prospects in any trades... the question is whether or not teams are even making those types of talents available. That's the question. If they could get Dylan Bundy from the Orioles, or Jameson Taillon or Gerrit Cole from the Pirates, they would.

  7. #47
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    4,625
    Like
    513
    Liked 214 Times in 147 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Crikket View Post
    I'm really not too concerned with whether the Twins win 78 games this year or 58. At this point, their final record is immaterial. August should be about getting marginal players enough innings to fairly evaluate whether they should be part of the plans for 2013 and September should be about giving some young players some opportunities to show they should get some consideration next year, too. If that means you lose more games than you would with your A line up out there every day, so be it.

    I know losing 100+ games will just give some folks more ammunition to blast the front office and field management, but the decision makers will know it was still the right approach.
    On this, we agree 100%
    Lighten up Francis....

  8. #48
    Senior Member All-Star James's Avatar
    Posts
    1,119
    Like
    98
    Liked 35 Times in 27 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    Listen, no one is saying that this is a playoff team as is. No one is saying that the first six weeks of the season didn't matter. It does. But so do that last 65 games. Add some pitching, and they may not be all that far from being much improved and contending. Not this year, but next year, if certain things happen.

    Also, I 100% agree that the Twins should be going after high-ceiling pitching prospects in any trades... the question is whether or not teams are even making those types of talents available. That's the question. If they could get Dylan Bundy from the Orioles, or Jameson Taillon or Gerrit Cole from the Pirates, they would.
    Seth, I don't think you understand, the Twins could have all three of those guys. TR is just not trying hard enough to get them.

    (I really hope the sarcasm came through on that one).

    I get a lot of weird vibes from some posters on this site that really think that other teams are just going to give up those types of prospects to get Span or Willingham. Is it possible, not without a lot of extras thrown in there. Starting pitching prospects with #1 type stuff are the most coveted pieces in an organization now. It takes a lot to pry one away from a team.
    You can come up with statistics to prove anything. Forty percent of all people know that.

  9. #49
    Senior Member All-Star Winston Smith's Avatar
    Posts
    1,108
    Like
    44
    Liked 155 Times in 80 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    What was there record from 2007 to 2010?

    These random numbers you are throwing out are next to pointless seeing how the Twins had several good seasons (some great) followed up by two clunkers in 2011, 2012.

    The record they had in 2008 has zero to do with their 2012 record.
    It does go to the point over an extended period of time this has been a mediocre team. These are not random numbers this is the actual record of games played. I did not cherry pick from May 16th.... If you are happy with mediocre fine, I am not. Time for a change!

  10. #50
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
    Posts
    3,616
    Like
    37
    Liked 184 Times in 104 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    It does go to the point over an extended period of time this has been a mediocre team. These are not random numbers this is the actual record of games played. I did not cherry pick from May 16th.... If you are happy with mediocre fine, I am not. Time for a change!
    88, 87, 94 is the number of wins they had in 2008,2009 and 2010. That is medicore??

    The Twins had 3 very nice seasons (one great) followed up by the 2nd worst in franchise history. Again 2012 has nothing to do with what happened in 2007/2008.

    Again, you throwing out their record from 2007 onwards is pointless.

  11. #51
    Banned Big-Leaguer
    Posts
    636
    Like
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Again, you throwing out their record from 2007 onwards is pointless.
    Like throwing out that the Twins have been a .500 team from some random meaningless date in May.

  12. #52
    I think the Twins should move Morneau if someone will eat the 14 million due to him next year and the Twins eat this year. With that I'm be giddy with a B prospect but a Player to be named would work to. If the Twins lose that 14 million they will have salary flexbility going forward and Morneau has brought no value to the Twins for that money. .5 WAR, lost his defensive value and he can't hit lefties. The Twins probably won't complete in 2013 and at that point Morneau is free agent. The lineup has been solid with Span, Revere, Mauer, Willingham, Plouffe & Doumit. They don't need Morneau and Parmelee could probably do what Morneau has done (AAA numbers exciting) for 13.5 million less.

  13. #53
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer 70charger's Avatar
    Posts
    934
    Like
    74
    Liked 57 Times in 27 Posts
    Winston Smith and DPJ:

    There is an enormous difference between the time periods quoted. That difference is: team members. I would argue that dismissing the first several weeks of the season is absolutely warranted, simply because the Twins had a totally different lineup. Plouffe wasn't playing, Dozier wasn't up, Valencia was still whiffing at the major league level, Sean Burroughs was on the roster, Jason Marquis was putting up an 8 ERA, Pavano was still pitching, etc. Beginning in mid- to late-May, the Twins were a different team, and that's why quoting the record since then is not cherry picking.

    On the other hand, your quoting the record over the last five years is entirely moot, because the teams are all so different among those five years. Hell, even over the last two years, look at the differences!

    Between 2010 and 2012, here are the changes. First base is the same, but second, third, and short are all different. Center field is the same, but left and right are both different. Catcher is technically the same, but now Mauer is half-time. DH is different. 3 out of the 5 starting pitchers are gone. The reliever corps is quite different too, but that's expected, so we'll leave them out of the total count.

    That means that, total, the 2010 team and 2012 team have about 5 and a half players in common, out of a possible 14. Adding up the stats for the last five years means adding up stats for teams that are radically different. That's why your point doesn't hold.

  14. #54
    As for Dozier I know he is a Seth guy and a Gardy guy but his numbers are atrocious even for a Rookie. The one thing I'd say his his fielding errors have been pronounced but overall he hasn't been terrible at the position. But a 272 OBP .2 WAR with average Defense creates no optimism. His minor league numbers don't back up that this is just an adjustment to the majors either. He's 25 as well, at that age if you were actually a prospect you would expect way better numbers. If this team had two quality starters to go with Diamond (Guys who could pitch 200 innings 2-4 WAR and K rates at 6 or above) along with a SS or 2B (Carroll outstanding Utility guy) who could give them 1-2 WAR they probably would be close to a playoff team. They never would have started so bad and would probably be around 500 if not better.

  15. #55
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
    Posts
    3,809
    Like
    27
    Liked 321 Times in 191 Posts
    Blog Entries
    198
    Quote Originally Posted by 70charger View Post
    Winston Smith and DPJ:

    There is an enormous difference between the time periods quoted. That difference is: team members. I would argue that dismissing the first several weeks of the season is absolutely warranted, simply because the Twins had a totally different lineup. Plouffe wasn't playing, Dozier wasn't up, Valencia was still whiffing at the major league level, Sean Burroughs was on the roster, Jason Marquis was putting up an 8 ERA, Pavano was still pitching, etc. Beginning in mid- to late-May, the Twins were a different team, and that's why quoting the record since then is not cherry picking.

    On the other hand, your quoting the record over the last five years is entirely moot, because the teams are all so different among those five years. Hell, even over the last two years, look at the differences!

    Between 2010 and 2012, here are the changes. First base is the same, but second, third, and short are all different. Center field is the same, but left and right are both different. Catcher is technically the same, but now Mauer is half-time. DH is different. 3 out of the 5 starting pitchers are gone. The reliever corps is quite different too, but that's expected, so we'll leave them out of the total count.

    That means that, total, the 2010 team and 2012 team have about 5 and a half players in common, out of a possible 14. Adding up the stats for the last five years means adding up stats for teams that are radically different. That's why your point doesn't hold.
    Here is the point:

    the 2011 team was awful. Not enough was done before the 2012 season to improve it enough to be a contender. The 2012 team is awful. So you got to fix it. If you sit on your rear end and do nothing, it is not going to fix itself. That's why Ryan should be on the phone trying to get new players here.

    Or, you can say "we cannot compete in 2013 and look towards 2014-5" and sell everyone who will be over their primes by then and acquiring new talent so you can compete when you plan to compete.

    Sitting on your rear end, waiting for Godot or divine intervention does not work. Gotta have a plan and execute it.
    -----
    Blogging Twins since 2007 at The Tenth Inning Stretch
    http://tenthinningstretch.blogspot.com/
    twitter: @thrylos98

  16. #56
    Senior Member All-Star
    Posts
    3,171
    Like
    19
    Liked 198 Times in 125 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs View Post
    Listen, no one is saying that this is a playoff team as is. No one is saying that the first six weeks of the season didn't matter. It does. But so do that last 65 games. Add some pitching, and they may not be all that far from being much improved and contending. Not this year, but next year, if certain things happen.

    Also, I 100% agree that the Twins should be going after high-ceiling pitching prospects in any trades... the question is whether or not teams are even making those types of talents available. That's the question. If they could get Dylan Bundy from the Orioles, or Jameson Taillon or Gerrit Cole from the Pirates, they would.
    I think this is part of the issue in deviding everyone on this board in regards to the talent the Twins got for Liriano and may get for other players. No one expects those kinds of players, but high upside does not necessarily mean high ranking. A team may have a pitcher ranked 15th in the system pitching in AAA and ready to contribute. The 16th player in their system may be in A ball, very raw, but with strikeout potential. It's a tough decision, but I want the A baller.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    Here is the point:the 2011 team was awful. Not enough was done before the 2012 season to improve it enough to be a contender. The 2012 team is awful. So you got to fix it. If you sit on your rear end and do nothing, it is not going to fix itself. That's why Ryan should be on the phone trying to get new players here.Or, you can say "we cannot compete in 2013 and look towards 2014-5" and sell everyone who will be over their primes by then and acquiring new talent so you can compete when you plan to compete.Sitting on your rear end, waiting for Godot or divine intervention does not work. Gotta have a plan and execute it.
    Exactly right. It appears the FO has no plan or direction. Being stuck between rebuilding and mediocre is the worst place for a sports team to be.

  18. #58
    Senior Member Double-A
    Posts
    150
    Like
    0
    Liked 7 Times in 6 Posts
    This is off point but, the voices in my head are telling me to mention it. The picture in this article is perfect for a caption contest.

    I'll start it off. "Jesus H. Christ Terry. None of these fockers can pitch! Please. Quit playing with your ball and got me some pitchers!"

  19. #59
    Should the Twins trade Morneau, Span, Revere or Willingham--absolutely if they can get a top-notch pitching prospect. I doubt teams will give them up for 2 guys with concussion histories, an OF with no arm, or an OF who should be a DH. These are the Twins top 4 players--but they are not all-stars. I love Span but not sure he could bring a top prospect.

    There is no need to make a trade just to make a trade. Stick to your guns--get value for one of these guys or wait till off-season. In the meantime, play Parmalee to see whether he can play 1B everyday.

  20. #60
    Senior Member Triple-A
    Posts
    269
    Like
    0
    Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    I see what the Twins did before this season as positive (Carrol, Willingham, Doumit, and Burton). After the lousy start, we are seeing what we hoped for (better defense, decent offensive production, improved bullpen, and bad starting pitching).
    I don't see a reason for the negativity surrounding the Liriano trade personally. I think it's a miracle that we got two guys that could contribute after seeing how up and down this guy has been for the past 5 years.
    As far as more trades go, I don't see anything until Pavano and Capps come back and then hopefully we can get something for them.

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
©2014 TwinsCentric, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Interested in advertising with Twins Daily? Click here.