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Thread: Chik-fil-A

  1. #21
    Our current president repealed dont ask dont tell. Like I said, being a centrist doesnt mean one side isnt wrong.

  2. #22
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    The pandering is in the direction of being squeamish about gay marriage. I'm sure Obama and Biden have believed that the gov't should be granting marriage licences to same-sex couples for decades. It's common sense from a classic liberal point of view. There's really no moderate position on this. Part of the problem is the fight isn't just a legal one, it's a cultural one. Gay couples want not only the legal rights of marriage, but also the public sanctity of their individual gods and cultural recognition at large, which is totally human and legitimate. The fight isn't about granting gay couples marriage licences it's about preventing gay couples from getting them. The whether marriage-is-a-right argument is disingenuous, foolhardy moderation. Whether the government gives out marriage licences or dog licences, it's the intervention to prevent that disrupts the regular flow of public life, not vise versa. It's no coincidence that those who state gay marriage should be a non-issue are those not affected by it.

    What's so damn irritating about the Right's fight on this issue is their claim to family values. Seemingly, they'd rather have crackhead single parent homes (they probably believe in Jesus) than stable gay coupled families. It's absurd and really morally bankrupt.

    Chik-Fil-A might get publicity for a short time, but really, this kind publicity tarnishes the brand after its out of the news cycle. Would I want to be franchise owner of a Chik-Fil-A in a gentrified neighborhood? No. Maybe Chik-Fil-A will gain popularity among white suburbs, but the entrenchment of KFC, etc, leads me to believe, as far as business, this is self-headbutt-dumb move.

    I find it harder to believe that all of us don't occupy a world where heterosexuals become close to people who are homosexual and who take same-sex partners, and that those heterosexuals wouldn't want what their gay friends/family want for themselves, that they wouldn't be willing to fight for such a basic recognition on their behalf.

    As far as I'm concerned, being American is about fighting for what is right, in spite of what tradition or the law might say (a founding principle, I think).
    Last edited by PseudoSABR; 08-04-2012 at 02:42 AM.

  3. #23
    I dont know that I agree with you pseudo; I dont believe that either our president or VP have considered the idea of same sex marriage over their careers. However I dont doubt their sincerity on the matter now, isnt that the idea of progrossesivism? I am sure they are counting votes at the same time. Every politician does. And the more national you are the more you concede.

  4. #24
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flpmagikat View Post
    I dont know that I agree with you pseudo; I dont believe that either our president or VP have considered the idea of same sex marriage over their careers. However I dont doubt their sincerity on the matter now, isnt that the idea of progrossesivism? I am sure they are counting votes at the same time. Every politician does. And the more national you are the more you concede.
    I think political liberals must cow to the center and acquiesce to religious norms to get elected. I just think it wasn't politically favorable for Democrats to support a position that would seem radical (even if it's really a natural progression of civil rights). I think progressive movements result not from people changing their mind, but rather people entering a culture that makes it more comfortable to be publicly progressive. Young people overwhelmingly support gay marriage, those who oppose it will die out; whether anyone else changes their minds, it's simply a matter of time for gay marriage to be recognized nationally.

    I do agree, that as a point of policy Obama and Biden would never evoke gay marriage, but I also think that they'd only oppose it for political reasons, not because of their principles.

  5. #25
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    Which politicians on the left are actually supporting gay Marriage, because to me it seems like it's just Gavin Newsome. I'll give Biden credit to because I think his support was his actual opinion and not a political play but he has about the same amount of political power as my dog in his current position. The younger generation on the right in many cases was vocal in supporting gay marriage including John kriesel. Until the ballot amendment is leagalize it or state government votes on it I don't really care about the issue. The amendment in Minnesota will pass, but really will not change anything in a meaningful way it will simply mean instead of 52% supporting it we're still sitting closer to 40%

  6. #26
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    The whether marriage-is-a-right argument is disingenuous, foolhardy moderation. Whether the government gives out marriage licences or dog licences, it's the intervention to prevent that disrupts the regular flow of public life, not vise versa. It's no coincidence that those who state gay marriage should be a non-issue are those not affected by it.
    How is being accurate disingenuous? Marriage isn't a right. Nothing that we have a "right" to is licensed by the friggin county we live in. (Except for more extreme versions of fundamental rights, like conceal and carry. But even then no one is licensing you to have a rifle in your home)

    The rest of this paragraph doesn't make much sense. The value of recognizing a license for what it is (read: NOT A RIGHT) is that it shifts the conversation to practical questions rather than religious nonsense. Then we ask - do gay couples meet the qualifications for a license as much as hetero couples? The answer to those questions, in virtually every fair and meaningful study done, is yes. Licenses aren't meant to inhibit the rights of others, they are meant to enforce the function of the license. There is a reason not everyone is licensed to drive, teach, practice psychology, drive a semi, or anything else you want to list. Licenses "give permission". Rights are, by their very nature, ours without permission.

    The issue gets confused (understandably, but no less wrongly) here - you have a right to socialize with whom you choose. The license is another level of this socialization that requires permission - and rightfully so. Society has a vested interest in only encouraging positive social relationships for economic and child rearing purposes. Gay couples meet those interests now and if we focus the conversation there (rather than playing in the ballfield that favors the wackos, see: non-empirical) than we have a chance to change this.

    But good god lefties - not everything is a damn right, get off of that nonsense.

  7. #27
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    No one's saying it's a right. However, it's unethical, imho, to deny privileges to some people based on sexual preferences. I suppose the gov't doesn't HAVE to grant dog licences to Latinos, but it'd be pretty craptastic if they didn't.

  8. #28
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    No one's saying it's a right. However, it's unethical, imho, to deny privileges to some people based on sexual preferences. I suppose the gov't doesn't HAVE to grant dog licences to Latinos, but it'd be pretty craptastic if they didn't.
    Psued, all you have to do is look at this thread to see that it is being talked about constantly on this issue. Discrimination happens all the time in the law, the key is that it can pass the Equal Protection Clause. Frankly, homosexual couples were rightly discriminated against from marriage licenses for a long time - they weren't positive environments (or environments at all) for raising children or stable relationships. That wasn't always their doing of course, but it was the truth. But those reasons have change and THAT is the grounds you fight this issue on because it completely diffuses all of the nonsensical attacks from the right.

    When you do that it concentrates the argument on the EP Clause. So now you focus on the arguments that used to be opposed to gay marriage which have changed. All of the arguments for why homosexual couples would be unfit for marriage recognition (stable partnerships, economic partnership, child rearing) are extinct. Studies show homosexual partners are just as good as hetero couples on all of these fronts. I completely agree that we should be making the moral appeal as well, but not in terms of "rights". More in terms of what is "right" to do in how to treat another human being. But that is a separate and lesser campaign then this. People forget that many of the major steps forward in civil rights were by judges and the system of law recognizing the injustice. That forced the conversation to moral grounds but with the force of law behind the right cause. And since we are talking about a legal privilege - battling it in court makes SO much more sense than on the ground the religious whackos decide.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer biggentleben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    From a legal/government point of view we aren't discriminating against 14 year olds because we don't let them drive.
    Um, some states allow 14 year-olds full driving licences. Not an argument on the point, just stating fact.
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  10. #30
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biggentleben View Post
    Um, some states allow 14 year-olds full driving licences. Not an argument on the point, just stating fact.
    Then pick a different age. Try 11. Or many 91 year olds. The point was we discriminate all the time.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by flpmagikat View Post
    What, pandering to the people who believe in equal rights? Pandering to the people who think being a bigot makes you kinda a bad person? I really dont care why obama or any democrat supports gay marriage, they arent wasting their breath demonizing it.
    Pandering is pandering and you really should care if your politicians are doing it. The issue they pander on is irrelevant. How will you know what they believe if they spend all their time pandering?

  12. #32
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    Telling someone what they want to hear is great if it's what you actually believe, but if I'm fighting for my rights I'm thankful that I know where a Michele Bachmann stands as opposed to Al Franken Barack Obama and Keith Ellison who will tell you what you want to hear but in reality have never lifted a finger for the cause. The reality is the Democrats wish this issue didn't exist because many of them agree with Michele Bachmann on the issue.
    Last edited by fatbeer; 08-05-2012 at 09:38 PM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbeer View Post
    Telling someone what they want to hear is great if it's what you actually believe, but if I'm fighting for my rights I'm thankful that I know where a Michele Bachmann stands as opposed to Al Franken Barack Obama and Keith Ellison who will tell you what you want to hear but in reality have never lifted a finger for the cause. The reality is the Democrats wish this issue didn't exist because many of them agree with Michele Bachmann on the issue.
    I think you have it completely backwards. I imagine virtually all Democrats have no problem with gay marriage but can't say it too loudly because public opinion hasn't reached a tipping point as of yet.

    I imagine Bachmann is sincere in her beliefs, but many Republicans are much more cynical about this, as they personally are probably in favor of (or at least indifferent about) gay marriage, but play up their opposition to play to the worst impulses of their base.

    So, as in so many political debates of our time, we have a titanic clash of the gutless vs the cynical. Good times.
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  14. #34
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
    So, as in so many political debates of our time, we have a titanic clash of the gutless vs the cynical. Good times.
    ..

  15. #35
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
    I think you have it completely backwards. I imagine virtually all Democrats have no problem with gay marriage but can't say it too loudly because public opinion hasn't reached a tipping point as of yet.

    I imagine Bachmann is sincere in her beliefs, but many Republicans are much more cynical about this, as they personally are probably in favor of (or at least indifferent about) gay marriage, but play up their opposition to play to the worst impulses of their base.

    So, as in so many political debates of our time, we have a titanic clash of the gutless vs the cynical. Good times.
    I am going to steal this entire thing. Thank you in advance!

  16. #36
    Head Moderator MVP glunn's Avatar
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    What if the owner of the White Sox bought Chick-fil-A? Would that dampen anyone's taste for this restaurant?

  17. #37
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbeer View Post
    Telling someone what they want to hear is great if it's what you actually believe, but if I'm fighting for my rights I'm thankful that I know where a Michele Bachmann stands as opposed to Al Franken Barack Obama and Keith Ellison who will tell you what you want to hear but in reality have never lifted a finger for the cause. The reality is the Democrats wish this issue didn't exist because many of them agree with Michele Bachmann on the issue.
    Nobody in their right mind agrees with Michele Bachmann on much of anything. Even when she has a valid point, it's so overwhelmed by crazytalk that the salient point is lost in a sea of noise.

    I'm ashamed that Minnesota continues to elect her. She's an embarrassment to the state.

  18. #38
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Yeah, she's bat-dung crazy.

  19. #39
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    Bachmann is a mouth piece for the people of her district, but also very much a creation of the media. You have to listen to Rightwing radio to hear the same sort of things from the left, but when you put together selective quotes and stories from Obama Pelosi or Ried they easily become nutjob clueless idiots too. In the end you need to be able to see through all this and make a selection based on things that actually matter. Someone in Delaware thinking less of your state or district will never matter, just as someone in North Carolina wondering how the hell Keith Ellison got elected will never matter.

  20. #40
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbeer View Post
    Bachmann is a mouth piece for the people of her district, but also very much a creation of the media. You have to listen to Rightwing radio to hear the same sort of things from the left, but when you put together selective quotes and stories from Obama Pelosi or Ried they easily become nutjob clueless idiots too. In the end you need to be able to see through all this and make a selection based on things that actually matter. Someone in Delaware thinking less of your state or district will never matter, just as someone in North Carolina wondering how the hell Keith Ellison got elected will never matter.
    No way can you compare Obama and Bachmann. Michele is a fringe, right wing nutjob. She's an embarrassment to Congress and given the average Congress, that's really sayin' something. Hell, her own party just called her out for implying there were Al Queda ties to Hilary's assistant. If the rest of the GOP is backpedaling on a remark you made toward Hilary Clinton, you know you've gone completely off the deep end.

    Her Politifact page would be hilarious if it wasn't so damned sad. The woman flat-out lies as often as she can get away with it (more often, actually) to rile up her base. She's the very definition of a demagogue.

    She's an awful, terrible, horrible woman and I have little respect for anyone who votes for her. I can handle people who disagree with me on various topics but if your main tools to convince people you're right are lies, fire, and brimstone, I'm not going to have a lick of respect for you or your constituency.

    In a nutshell, Bachmann is the pure embodiment of everything that is wrong with American politics. And I'm not even a ****ing Democrat.

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