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Thread: Souhan/Ryan weigh in

  1. #1
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Souhan/Ryan weigh in

    http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/167784175.html

    Not sure if this has been posted anywhere here. If so, my apologies.

    In a nutshell: Ryan says "I'll probably stick around. This is my fault...but I don't really plan to do anything to fix it. Maybe bring back the rotting carcass of Carl Pavano."

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/167784175.html

    Not sure if this has been posted anywhere here. If so, my apologies.

    In a nutshell: Ryan says "I'll probably stick around. This is my fault...but I don't really plan to do anything to fix it. Maybe bring back the rotting carcass of Carl Pavano."
    You've got to be kidding me!?! I like a stand-up guy, but this is going to become much worse than even I predicted (Hello payroll < $80M?):

    "Ryan was blunt about a variety of subjects. He ..
    .
    • Will not fire manager Ron Gardenhire.
    • Won't force Gardenhire to make changes to his coaching staff.
    • Considers Justin Morneau a "core" player whom he expects to thrive next season.
    • Wants people to stop blaming Joe Mauer for the team's problems.
    • Would consider re-signing pending free-agent pitchers Scott Baker and Carl Pavano.
    • Doubts he will pursue any elite free-agent pitchers this winter, saying it will be a "thin" market and that he's averse to signing such pitchers to the long-term deals required to land them.
    • Insists that he, not the previous general manager, the manager or ownership, should take the blame for this season."

  3. #3
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Not firing Gardenhire is one thing. Not "forcing" him to make coaching changes is one thing. Strongly suggesting coaching changes is another!

    Morneau is the necessary trade to make and this is hopefully just smokescreen. Unless trading Parmelee is the idea? Morneau's salary is a huge move, though, even if the Twins agreed to pay half of it. That $7 million plus the BYE-BYE to Pavano (if they resign him, I will vomit) would open up the right amount for a very good FA starting pitcher signing.

    I wonder what he means by "elite"? I might agree if he really means the very top top. The rung below is vital, though. It is NOT a thin market for starting pitching.

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    Sure it is his fault, the fans that go to the games fault, and the tax payers fault.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    "Ryan was blunt about a variety of subjects. He ..
    .
    • Will not fire manager Ron Gardenhire.
    • Won't force Gardenhire to make changes to his coaching staff.
    • Considers Justin Morneau a "core" player whom he expects to thrive next season.
    • Wants people to stop blaming Joe Mauer for the team's problems.
    • Would consider re-signing pending free-agent pitchers Scott Baker and Carl Pavano.
    • Doubts he will pursue any elite free-agent pitchers this winter, saying it will be a "thin" market and that he's averse to signing such pitchers to the long-term deals required to land them.
    • Insists that he, not the previous general manager, the manager or ownership, should take the blame for this season."
    Uhhh, then what exactly is the plan? Wait?

  6. #6
    Wow. I hope the Pohlads realize that much of this Twins decline was already set into motion by things Ryan did (and didn't do) the FIRST time around.

    Agree with poster above that this is a not a "thin" FA market for SP. That sort of argument is kind of pointless when you thumb your nose at the whole idea of free agency to begin with. (Hey, how did Willingham work out?)

    Seriously, Ryan's made some good moves in the past, but for every good move, he seems to handcuff us with some piece of philosophy that makes no sense.

  7. #7
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post

    You've got to be kidding me!?! I like a stand-up guy, but this is going to become much worse than even I predicted (Hello payroll < $80M?):

    "Ryan was blunt about a variety of subjects. He ..
    .
    • Will not fire manager Ron Gardenhire.
    • Won't force Gardenhire to make changes to his coaching staff.
    • Considers Justin Morneau a "core" player whom he expects to thrive next season.
    • Wants people to stop blaming Joe Mauer for the team's problems.
    • Would consider re-signing pending free-agent pitchers Scott Baker and Carl Pavano.
    • Doubts he will pursue any elite free-agent pitchers this winter, saying it will be a "thin" market and that he's averse to signing such pitchers to the long-term deals required to land them.
    • Insists that he, not the previous general manager, the manager or ownership, should take the blame for this season."
    I actually don't disagree with a lot of what he said there but this pitching market is "thin" and that he won't participate in it? WHAT?!?! The only thing I can carry away from that statement that makes me want to watch a single Twins game is 2013 is the word "elite", which is really thin this offseason. If JR is saying that the Twins won't pursue a Hamels-type player (and there isn't really one of those on the market anyway) but instead go after a Marcum/Jackson type player, I'm completely fine with that.

    But if he's saying he won't pursue any decent starting pitching at all, fire the guy. Right now. That's the type of statement that is so completely illogical that it makes me want to scream. This team needs four starting pitchers. FOUR. You're not going to assemble four guys by pulling junk like Pavano off the heap and giving him innings. You might get one guy that way. No way in hell are you going to get four. Or even two.

  8. #8
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post

    You've got to be kidding me!?! I like a stand-up guy, but this is going to become much worse than even I predicted (Hello payroll < $80M?):

    "Ryan was blunt about a variety of subjects. He ..
    .
    • Will not fire manager Ron Gardenhire.
    • Won't force Gardenhire to make changes to his coaching staff.
    • Considers Justin Morneau a "core" player whom he expects to thrive next season.
    • Wants people to stop blaming Joe Mauer for the team's problems.
    • Would consider re-signing pending free-agent pitchers Scott Baker and Carl Pavano.
    • Doubts he will pursue any elite free-agent pitchers this winter, saying it will be a "thin" market and that he's averse to signing such pitchers to the long-term deals required to land them.
    • Insists that he, not the previous general manager, the manager or ownership, should take the blame for this season."
    I actually don't disagree with a lot of what he said there but this pitching market is "thin" and that he won't participate in it? WHAT?!?! The only thing I can carry away from that statement that makes me want to watch a single Twins game is 2013 is the word "elite", which is really thin this offseason. If JR is saying that the Twins won't pursue a Hamels-type player (and there isn't really one of those on the market anyway) but instead go after a Marcum/Jackson type player, I'm completely fine with that.

    But if he's saying he won't pursue any decent starting pitching at all, fire the guy. Right now. That's the type of statement that is so completely illogical that it makes me want to scream. This team needs four starting pitchers. FOUR. You're not going to assemble four guys by pulling junk like Pavano off the heap and giving him innings. You might get one guy that way. No way in hell are you going to get four. Or even two.
    Yeah, Terry Ryan's definition of "elite" weighs heavily! Or maybe it is Souhan's definition (god help us all). Avoiding 6 years and $120 million is one thing (smart), but avoiding 4 years and $50 million is another (totally stupid).

    I guess saying Morneau is a core player who will thrive doesn't entail that they wouldn't be serious about trading him.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Mr. Ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuba View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    "Ryan was blunt about a variety of subjects. He ..
    .
    • Will not fire manager Ron Gardenhire.
    • Won't force Gardenhire to make changes to his coaching staff.
    • Considers Justin Morneau a "core" player whom he expects to thrive next season.
    • Wants people to stop blaming Joe Mauer for the team's problems.
    • Would consider re-signing pending free-agent pitchers Scott Baker and Carl Pavano.
    • Doubts he will pursue any elite free-agent pitchers this winter, saying it will be a "thin" market and that he's averse to signing such pitchers to the long-term deals required to land them.
    • Insists that he, not the previous general manager, the manager or ownership, should take the blame for this season."
    Uhhh, then what exactly is the plan? Wait?
    Bargain dumpster diving
    Attempting to make a trade to tweak the awesome roster
    HOPING guys get better.

    That was this year's plan, too.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Mr. Ed's Avatar
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    "But if he's saying he won't pursue any decent starting pitching at all, fire the guy. Right now. That's the type of statement that is so completely illogical that it makes me want to scream. This team needs four starting pitchers. FOUR. You're not going to assemble four guys by pulling junk like Pavano off the heap and giving him innings. You might get one guy that way. No way in hell are you going to get four. Or even two."

    Thank you. MORE fans need to realize this.

  11. #11
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Yeah, Terry Ryan's definition of "elite" weighs heavily! Or maybe it is Souhan's definition (god help us all). Avoiding 6 years and $120 million is one thing (smart), but avoiding 4 years and $50 million is another (totally stupid).

    I guess saying Morneau is a core player who will thrive doesn't entail that they wouldn't be serious about trading him.
    Agreed. I'm all for avoiding pitching contracts that are longer than four years but this team can't ignore the quality pitching that is on the market this offseason. We'll get to see another 100 loss team if they try it.

    The Morneau quotes don't really bother me. JR obviously feels that Morneau's value is on the rise. If he wants to hold on to him longer, it's not the worst idea in the world. I don't think teams are offering anything of value for him right now and it's not as if the Twins need the salary relief (doubly so after JR's comments).

  12. #12
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    I view much of this as smokescreen/not tipping my hand info. I've seen enough JR over the years to know his pension for dumpster squatting, but I really believe they are not satisfied with what we have to sign a Marcum/Jackson level pitcher (and likely take a long look at Baker's progress). I'll wait it out to get upset.

  13. #13
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    This is vintage Twins ... and vintage Terry Ryan.

    I honestly believe that they do not care about being elite. They care ONLY about being competitive enough to put b*tts in the seats while maximizing the return they get for the dollars they do invest. (It had to kill Ryan to throw away the Marquis and Nishioka dollars). And they recognize that the AL Central is often mediocre enough that the strategy will keep them "competitive" through most of the summer.

    That's why Morneau is a "core" player -- they are still hoping to maximize the "draw" of M & M. That's why they won't take very big risks on free agent pitching -- preferring to limit the dollars they expose. Instead, they will spend limited dollars on FA pitching.

    Since October 2010, I've been perfectly willing to see them totally rebuild this team -- because I recognized that they were a long way from being eliite (in my definition -- able to win in the playoffs). But that's not how they operate.

    The Twins are very risk-adverse. Their moves are always calculated to minimize their exposure whlle doing just enough to bring fans through the gates and keep the dollars rolling in. They miscalculated over the last 2 years -- being decimated by injuries last year and just plain overestimating their team -- especially the starting pitching -- for this year.

    But those "miscalculations" won't be enough to cause them to change their overall strategy. Someone posted on another thread last night that Kenny Williams had said the Twins could have won the World Series several times in the last 10 years if they had just been willing to spend those extra dollars. I think he was right -- and I don't think it will ever happen.

    I'm not opposed to building starting pitching through trades and draft/develop and Rule V but if you're going to do that, you can't also think that you have to hold on to Morneau (or any other player if you can get a needed return).

  14. #14
    Senior Member All-Star Boom Boom's Avatar
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    Those comments about free agent pitchers bother me a lot.

    Maybe I'm misinterpreting Ryan, or maybe Souhan is, but what I'm taking away is that Ryan won't pursue big-time free agent pitchers, regardless of how much money he has to do it. You can talk about trading Morneau and Span to free up some money but the Twins still won't sign any pitchers better than Pavano or Baker.

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    Owner All-Star John Bonnes's Avatar
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    Souhan gives us "thin" in double quotes, but then doesn't give us the quote by Ryan where he uses that term. Ugh. Maybe we can get the context that was used. I agree - last I looked the market was anything but thin.

    More interesting to me was the speculation about Ryan's future....

    "We have not played well," Ryan said. "And everything comes underneath my umbrella. So I'll go through the next month and we'll see exactly where we stand here, but sooner rather than later Mr. Pohlad has got to get a decision out of me. I know he can't go on forever with this setup."
    I asked Ryan a handful of questions designed to gauge his willingness to keep the job. He did not provide a definitive answer."
    But then Souhan suggests that Ryan is going to be around long term? Ryan's quotes make it sound like he views this as a project (to turn things around) rather than an ongoing job. All I can figure is that Ryan is playing his status close to the vest because he wants to negotiate with the Pohlads or just because he wants to defer to them and let them make the decision?

  16. #16
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    While the FA SP market isn't thin, I do agree that the Elite FA Pitcher market is thin.

  17. #17
    Senior Member All-Star Winston Smith's Avatar
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    The good thing is that Livan and Marquis are back on the market this winter, pitching problems solved.

    Trade rumor says Red Sox pitcher Doubrnot has been claimed and speculates it could be part of a Mauer trade.

  18. #18
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SweetOne69 View Post
    While the FA SP market isn't thin, I do agree that the Elite FA Pitcher market is thin.
    Yeah, that is what he appeared to be saying. Don't plan on us making a run at the elite FA pitchers (Greinke) since there asking price will be astronomical. The last thing this club needs to do is hand out some huge contract to a question mark like Grienke or Sanchez. Sounds like he was just preparing the fans that the Twins won't be in the Greinke sweepstakes.

    In regards to Morneau, There is no reason for him to say: Oh yeah we definitely want to trade him! What does that accomplish? They have already stated they would listen to offers on Morneau, they need to make sure they get talent back in any trade.

    I still think the Twins best bet on acquiring a front of the rotation starter is by trading Span, and Ryan should be able to make some key signings. Last year he was able to land us Willingham, Doumit and Burton which were all great pick ups. Caroll was what we expected, and Marquis didn't work out. Hopefully he can find us the pitching equivalents of Willingham and Doumit this off-season.

    "I don't think either one of us should independently make that call. I wouldn't want to force-feed a coach on a manager. That never works in a clubhouse."- exactly, Ryan and Gardy need to sit down after the season and decide who needs to stay or go. Frankly, I don't want them to fire either Varva or Anderson as I think both are pretty damn solid options, could care less about the rest of the guys, but is a new 1st base coach or bench coach really going to change this team?

    The Twins best bet for 2013 is to trade one or two of Span/Willingham/Morneau for some high upside pitching and then to fix the rotation with some shrewd signings, also they will need some of Gibson/Hendriks/Hicks/Arcia/Benson to step up as well.

  19. #19
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    The good thing is that Livan and Marquis are back on the market this winter, pitching problems solved.

    Trade rumor says Red Sox pitcher Doubrnot has been claimed and speculates it could be part of a Mauer trade.
    I seriously hope and doubt Mauer isn't traded, and frankly the Red Sox don't have the players needed to pull it off anyways. I do hope that the Twins claimed Doubront though, ideally they could trade away a young OF for him. (Benson?)

  20. #20
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    At this point. Greinke cannot be considered an "elite" pitching free agent. The train has already gone off the rails there.

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