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Thread: White Sox: Pitch to Contact

  1. #41
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    The Twins weren't harping on Liriano when he was throwing strikes in 2010. They may have asked him to get a few more pitches over the plate in hopes that he'd be a 7-8 inning pitcher instead of a 5-6 inning pitcher but almost any team would ask that from the guy. Finding ways to build on success is natural.
    I suspect if Parker did a comparison of Liriano's mechanics, it would show that LIriano's delivery was more sound in 2010 than in other years. I don't think its an effective coaching strategy to pound into a guy's head "throw strikes" instead of making specific points about where a pitcher's mechanics need to be improved. If Andy was making those points, he failed to get them through to Liriano.

  2. #42
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Again I ask, where is the evidence that pitching to contact enables longer outings? Looks to me like the league leaders in IP every year tend to be high strikeout, low walk guys.

  3. #43
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    Look at Silva's career. His three lowest k-rates are as a Twin.
    You are grasping at straws with that statement. Silva posted a 4.0/4.1 K/9 with Seattle (as opposed to a ~3.6 number with the Twins) and then moved to the NL, where his K rate jumped to over 6. Funny how the NL tends to do that for everybody.

  4. #44
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    The point is, you can't say "our guys can't get strikeouts" when you are encouraging them to get outs in 2 pitches. Its impossible to know what a pitcher is capable of unless you give them a longer leash.

  5. #45
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    The point is, you can't say "our guys can't get strikeouts" when you are encouraging them to get outs in 2 pitches. Its impossible to know what a pitcher is capable of unless you give them a longer leash.
    It's also impossible to get strikeouts without throwing the ball in the zone (the preferred place for hitters to see a pitch to make contact) - you are really making this ridiculously difficult for no reason. You're right that the Twins target guys that are contact heavy, but that doesn't mean the philosophy is wrong.

    Pitchers have a fear of batters making contact (a legitimate fear obviously) but when you let that drive your approach to the point that you don't trust your ability to throw strikes without getting pounded - you won't be effective. Read what Chris Carpenter said. All the Twins are doing is trying to take the mystique away from contact happening so they don't have pitchers so debilitated with fear about it that they are constantly walking guys.

    This is, and was, Liriano's problem. It isn't shocking that the next pitching coach said the same damn thing.

  6. #46
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    "Don't try to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic."

  7. #47
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post

    This is, and was, Liriano's problem. It isn't shocking that the next pitching coach said the same damn thing.
    I'm not trying to be difficult but it is frustrating when this assumption is made over and over, that pitchers do not appreciate the damage walks lead to, until their pitching coach explains it to them.

    Liriano's struggle isn't a validation of PTC. Liriano struggles because his mechanics are unsound. Andy, and now evidently Cooper, have failed to correct his mechanics, for whatever reason they haven't gotten through to him or been creative enough in their methods.

    The driving defense of pitching to contact is that it leads to more IP's. Where is the evidence? The leaders of IP every years are the ones who keep both walks and balls put in play to a minimum.

  8. #48
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    Liriano's struggle isn't a validation of PTC. Liriano struggles because his mechanics are unsound. Andy, and now evidently Cooper, have failed to correct his mechanics, for whatever reason they haven't gotten through to him or been creative enough in their methods.
    I'm wondering when you're going to stop blaming multiple pitching coaches and start blaming Francisco Liriano.

  9. #49
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    I'm not trying to be difficult but it is frustrating when this assumption is made over and over, that pitchers do not appreciate the damage walks lead to, until their pitching coach explains it to them.
    If your assumption is that professional athletes don't sometimes need to be re-taught the little things or receive this thing called "coaching" to remind them of what to do I think we can eliminate many other things about baseball. How about no more fielding practice - if people know they have to catch it, why tell them or run through drills? They've been doing that since they were six. Ditto hitting practice. Throwing. Stretching by trainers. I can keep going if you'd like.

    Sometimes coaching is telling someone something they already know but chose not to do for some stupid reason of their own. In Liriano's case - because he's a bit of a spaz.

  10. #50
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    How about no more fielding practice - if people know they have to catch it, why tell them or run through drills? They've been doing that since they were six. Ditto hitting practice. Throwing.
    A better comparison would be, if your fielder can't make the throw to first base, to coach him more specifically than merely repeating, "make the throw to first base," and instead explain where in his throw he is going wrong, and find a way to correct it.

  11. #51
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post

    I'm wondering when you're going to stop blaming multiple pitching coaches and start blaming Francisco Liriano.
    Are you saying he is uncoachable?

  12. #52
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post

    I'm wondering when you're going to stop blaming multiple pitching coaches and start blaming Francisco Liriano.
    Are you saying he is uncoachable?
    I'm saying that when multiple coaches tell a player to do something and that player doesn't do what they ask, it's on the player. I'm sure that Liriano has been coached on plenty of things over the years and has been exposed to hours of film from his various seasons. If he doesn't turn it around, that's on him. A coach can't go out to the mound and throw the ball for him.

  13. #53
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    How about no more fielding practice - if people know they have to catch it, why tell them or run through drills? They've been doing that since they were six. Ditto hitting practice. Throwing.
    A better comparison would be, if your fielder can't make the throw to first base, to coach him more specifically than merely repeating, "make the throw to first base," and instead explain where in his throw he is going wrong, and find a way to correct it.
    Do you honestly believe that hasn't been tried? These teams have all the footage they could want and a desire to make themselves better. The pitching coaches aren't just slapping Liriano on the ass and telling him "Go get 'em, tiger". Liriano has surely had every aspect of his game dissected by both the Minnesota and Chicago coaching staffs.

    At some point, you need to start blaming the guy who is throwing the baseball. A coaching staff can only do so much.

  14. #54
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    I do wonder how even our own Parker can consistently find specific weak points in a player's swing or delivery that the coaching staffs seem to miss. No, I wouldn't assume Andy/Vavra/Cooper had already spoken to a player about it. Certainly they do a good job hiding those points in their comments to the media, instead saying things like

    "We say, 'Blackie, attack the strike zone in the lower half. And we tell our guys to get outs on two or three pitches, instead of trying to throw five, six, seven pitches. We've always been good at throwing the ball over the plate.''
    Boy, I bet that was really helpful.

  15. #55
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    [A better comparison would be, if your fielder can't make the throw to first base, to coach him more specifically than merely repeating, "make the throw to first base," and instead explain where in his throw he is going wrong, and find a way to correct it.
    You're in some kind of weird limbo in which I'm not sure what exactly the role of coaches are? Where is this magical threshold at which time coaches never remind any player of fundamental skill or approach? Do you truly believe that coaching is nothing but mechanical breakdowns? (Something which, as Brock points out, a player can just as easily diagnose as well)

    Good lord, there isn't a profession in the world in which this doesn't happen. People know that documentation can be important in their job if they work in health services, government, or education - that doesn't stop them from not doing it and needing a reminder to get back on track. Yes, Liriano is failing to do something fundamental that he should know from the time he was twelve. That doesn't mean he doesn't need to be told it again. Hell, there are people all over taht parade around as motivational speakers telling us the key to happiness is to "smile" or "think positively" or any other obnoxious token phrase. Sometimes - you need to hear what you already know and sometimes you're too much of a spaz to process it and execute it.

  16. #56
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    If you're going to label someone as mentally spazoid, you should have something to back it up with besides just, he struggles to throw strikes. That sounds like a non sequitor to me.

  17. #57
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    If you're going to label someone as mentally spazoid, you should have something to back it up with besides just, he struggles to throw strikes. That sounds like a non sequitor to me.
    Well at least we've moved on to focusing on the real problem - Liriano and are done with this other nonsense.. Call his problem what you want, but Cooper is generally considered one of the best pitching coaches in the big leagues. He's telling Frankie the same thing we were - throw strikes and get ahead in the count. That he isn't doing that is on him.

  18. #58
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    He's telling Frankie the same thing we were - throw strikes and get ahead in the count. That he isn't doing that is on him.
    An accute lesson, no doubt.

    Certainly its not that he may be opening his front side to early. His body definitely isn't outpacing his arm. He's not finishing too high or losing his balance somewhere along the way. Surely there's no exercises or practices that might improve his delivery, or mental tricks that might help.

    Nope, he's just not throwing strikes and he should know better by now. That's on him, I agree 100%.

    Preposterous.

  19. #59
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    Certainly its not that he may be opening his front side to early. His body definitely isn't outpacing his arm. He's not finishing too high or losing his balance somewhere along the way. Surely there's no exercises or practices that might improve his delivery, or mental tricks that might help.
    One "mental trick" is to keep telling him to throw strikes. You have no idea whether the other things are or are not being done, but we do know that they are telling him the same thing we did. Which means, from their interactions, they also worry that he's trying to be too fine rather than trust his stuff and throw strikes. Which, again, the point of this thread was to point out how overblown the "pitch to contact" criticisms were.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    He's telling Frankie the same thing we were - throw strikes and get ahead in the count. That he isn't doing that is on him.
    An accute lesson, no doubt.

    Certainly its not that he may be opening his front side to early. His body definitely isn't outpacing his arm. He's not finishing too high or losing his balance somewhere along the way. Surely there's no exercises or practices that might improve his delivery, or mental tricks that might help.

    Nope, he's just not throwing strikes and he should know better by now. That's on him, I agree 100%.

    Preposterous.
    So you're thinking, that for all this time, Anderson, and now Cooper, just asked Liriano to please just do his best to throw strikes, and never had a word to say to him about his mechanics. That seems unbelievable. And preposterous.

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