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Thread: Gardenhire on Hendriks in the post game last night.

  1. #1
    Owner All-Star John Bonnes's Avatar
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    Gardenhire on Hendriks in the post game last night.

    Robby Incmikoski asked Gardy about Hendriks streak of bad bounces that happened last night. I have thought the same thing about several of Hendriks starts, going back to previous callups. Gardy was a little sympathetic, but gave some straight talk on what he things Hendriks needs to do.

    [Hendriks] threw 107 pitches in five innings. He didnít attack the strike zone. And Iím just guessing, but it sure looked like a lot of offspeed Ė a lot of breaking balls. Flipping the ball. He didnít attack. He didnít pound the strike zone.

    You know what? You get a lead, you have to go attack. You put men on base out there, they make contact, sure things fall in there, thy bloop themÖsure, he got a little unlucky.

    ButÖ 107 pitches in five innings. There is no way around that. Thatís too many pitches. The pace of the game was slow. Heís got to do better than that. If he wants to get a win in this league, heís got to pitch better than that. You have to go attack hitters. If they beat you then make them beat you Ė not putting guys on, not going 3-2 counts with every hitter.

    And thatís what Liamís got to understand here. Itís what heís done in the minor leagues and he did it one start up here but he has to do it consistently.
    Personally, I agree. Hendriks has had a lot of bad luck, and the strike zone was crummy last night, but I couldn't believe how many times Hendriks was 3-2 in those first couple of innings. Of course, that's also when he wasn't giving up runs, but I can't figure out why the hell he's nibbling so much. Is that really his game?

  2. #2
    Senior Member All-Star Badsmerf's Avatar
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    I don't think so. At this point I think its a mental thing for him that he has to overcome. Gardy is right about everything he said. At some point this will click for Liam, I hope its just sooner than later.

  3. #3
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    I don' disagree with Gardy's comments. I would say this though. I thought last night that Hendriks hit the knees and even an inch or two above the knee, and nothing was called a strike in that range. He hit the spots consistently, and if you ask Bert (or anyone) that is where a pitcher has to pitch to be successful. If you throw the ball thigh high to waist high, you're going to get hit. I don't know what to do about that because if he would have been throwing the ball in those areas and been destroyed by the hitters, Gardy would have been disappointed in that too.

    Hendriks has not thrown enough strikes in most of his starts. He's nibbling. But I thought that last night was more about the bad luck than anything that Hendriks should do to adjust. I want him to hit the knees, and he did it with his fastball and his breaking pitches last night.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    Robby Incmikoski asked Gardy about Hendriks streak of bad bounces that happened last night. I have thought the same thing about several of Hendriks starts, going back to previous callups. Gardy was a little sympathetic, but gave some straight talk on what he things Hendriks needs to do.

    [Hendriks] threw 107 pitches in five innings. He didn’t attack the strike zone. And I’m just guessing, but it sure looked like a lot of offspeed – a lot of breaking balls. Flipping the ball. He didn’t attack. He didn’t pound the strike zone.

    You know what? You get a lead, you have to go attack. You put men on base out there, they make contact, sure things fall in there, thy bloop them…sure, he got a little unlucky.

    But… 107 pitches in five innings. There is no way around that. That’s too many pitches. The pace of the game was slow. He’s got to do better than that. If he wants to get a win in this league, he’s got to pitch better than that. You have to go attack hitters. If they beat you then make them beat you – not putting guys on, not going 3-2 counts with every hitter.

    And that’s what Liam’s got to understand here. It’s what he’s done in the minor leagues and he did it one start up here but he has to do it consistently.
    Personally, I agree. Hendriks has had a lot of bad luck, and the strike zone was crummy last night, but I couldn't believe how many times Hendriks was 3-2 in those first couple of innings. Of course, that's also when he wasn't giving up runs, but I can't figure out why the hell he's nibbling so much. Is that really his game?

    This comment will completely distract from the point but I would laugh my ass off if Gardy actually said, "Thy bloop them".

  5. #5
    thought there were several instances when he got strike 3 (confirmed by K zone), but called a ball & had to throw 5/10 more pitches to a hitter or an inning.
    No excuse as this is something you have to deal with, but last night I thought he didnt get any help from home plate umpire

  6. #6
    Senior Member All-Star YourHouseIsMyHouse's Avatar
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    The home plate umpire was awful and inconsistent last night. I was especially mad when he didn't called a ball on what should have been a strike em out throw em out, but unfortunately it was a walk. That made Hendriks throw many more pitches in the first (27) after being robbed of 2 outs in one play. Swing track had the pitch in the zone pretty clearly (wasn't touching the edge).

  7. #7
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Bloop here, bloop there. Dribbler from a changeup in the fifth to tie the game. That's contact pitching for you. 3 whiffs all night.

    Also, take it with a grain of sale because the strike zone was lousy, but Hendriks' breaking balls had a higher strike percentage than his fastball.

    4 seam strike%: 52.63
    change: 94.74
    slider: 58.82
    curve: 57.14
    2 seam: 54.76

  8. #8
    yourhouse.......you were evidently watching the game.......while i agree with your comment that in the 1st it should have been a strike him out throw him out......BUT what about the call that he got on the batter before (kipnas) that pitch was clearly a ball & the ump rung him up...the umps miss calls every night & they definately missed some last night , but they missed them both ways, i actually thought hendricks got more calls for him than against....as far as bad luck, every pitcher has to deal with that, yes the swinging bunt with 2 outs cost him a run but the inning started with a double off the wall, it evens out ....hendricks has avg stuff & he has to hit his spots and pitch inside more, & like it or not the ump plays a huge part in his success...i have said before that i am not down on hendricks , i think he can be a #5 or long man, innings eater..but thats about it, the stuff just isnt there...

  9. #9
    He didn’t attack. He didn’t pound the strike zone.

    The pace of the game was slow. He’s got to do better than that. You have to go attack hitters. If they beat you then make them beat you – not putting guys on, not going 3-2 counts with every hitter.


    What we got here is another Francisco Hendriks, er, Liam Liriano...
    "Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand."

  10. #10
    Senior Member Triple-A
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    Since Liam's return, what I've seen from him, is that he's been predictable. He only pitches outside, he seems to be scared to come inside. I think this is due to the fact, he couldn't keep the ball in the park his first couple stints this year. It's worked so far, he's only allowed two out of the yard in 4 games, which is an improvement.

    The thing is, I'm assuming in AAA most batters would probably try to pull these pitches and would roll a grounder or hit weak fly balls. In the big leagues they seem to be flipping it to the opposite field or up the middle for base hits. He has to be willing to work both sides of the zone more effectively.

  11. #11
    The King In The North All-Star Nick Nelson's Avatar
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    [Hendriks] threw 107 pitches in five innings. He didn’t attack the strike zone. And I’m just guessing, but it sure looked like a lot of offspeed – a lot of breaking balls. Flipping the ball. He didn’t attack. He didn’t pound the strike zone.

    You know what? You get a lead, you have to go attack. You put men on base out there, they make contact, sure things fall in there, thy bloop them…sure, he got a little unlucky.

    But… 107 pitches in five innings. There is no way around that. That’s too many pitches. The pace of the game was slow. He’s got to do better than that. If he wants to get a win in this league, he’s got to pitch better than that. You have to go attack hitters. If they beat you then make them beat you – not putting guys on, not going 3-2 counts with every hitter.

    And that’s what Liam’s got to understand here. It’s what he’s done in the minor leagues and he did it one start up here but he has to do it consistently.
    In other words: pitch to contact! (ducks)

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    Personally, I agree. Hendriks has had a lot of bad luck, and the strike zone was crummy last night, but I couldn't believe how many times Hendriks was 3-2 in those first couple of innings. Of course, that's also when he wasn't giving up runs, but I can't figure out why the hell he's nibbling so much. Is that really his game?
    I think it's a confidence issue. He's gotten knocked around pretty badly in his time in the bigs... I think that can drive a pitcher to start nibbling because they're afraid to go over the plate.

    That being said, Hendricks doesn't have dominating stuff. He's going to need to use the corners to be an effective pitcher. I think there's still hope he can become a solid back end of the rotation kind of guy, which is why the Twins are having him continue to trot out there.

  13. #13
    I agree with others who have already said he needs to pitch inside more often, but maybe one of the reasons he is less effective in the majors than he was in the minors is major league hitters can hit breaking balls much more consistently effectively taking away his best 'out' pitch. Last night he was simply not able to put away hitters when he had two strikes on them. Has anyone done a count of how many two-strike foul balls they hit off him? It is those long at bats that run up the pitch count just as much as missing the corners or not getting the strike calls.

  14. #14
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwinsMusings View Post
    I agree with others who have already said he needs to pitch inside more often, but maybe one of the reasons he is less effective in the majors than he was in the minors is major league hitters can hit breaking balls much more consistently effectively taking away his best 'out' pitch. Last night he was simply not able to put away hitters when he had two strikes on them. Has anyone done a count of how many two-strike foul balls they hit off him? It is those long at bats that run up the pitch count just as much as missing the corners or not getting the strike calls.
    Two parts to this: 1) Missing bats--Hendriks doesn't have the kind of stuff challenge hitters and get strikeouts. It shows when he is hitting his spots, but getting long counts with lots of foul balls. 2) Lack of movement and deception. The fastball looks really straight to me and when Hendriks changed speeds or threw a breaking ball, it didn't appear to fool hitters. As written above, I also thought he threw a lot of good pitches at the knees and didn't get much help from the ump. I don't know what the solution is, although I have seen guys succeed with less in their tool kit than Hendriks has.

  15. #15
    Senior Member All-Star Badsmerf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringer bell View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TwinsMusings View Post
    I agree with others who have already said he needs to pitch inside more often, but maybe one of the reasons he is less effective in the majors than he was in the minors is major league hitters can hit breaking balls much more consistently effectively taking away his best 'out' pitch. Last night he was simply not able to put away hitters when he had two strikes on them. Has anyone done a count of how many two-strike foul balls they hit off him? It is those long at bats that run up the pitch count just as much as missing the corners or not getting the strike calls.
    Two parts to this: 1) Missing bats--Hendriks doesn't have the kind of stuff challenge hitters and get strikeouts. It shows when he is hitting his spots, but getting long counts with lots of foul balls. 2) Lack of movement and deception. The fastball looks really straight to me and when Hendriks changed speeds or threw a breaking ball, it didn't appear to fool hitters. As written above, I also thought he threw a lot of good pitches at the knees and didn't get much help from the ump. I don't know what the solution is, although I have seen guys succeed with less in their tool kit than Hendriks has.
    The problem with this, is that AAA isn't a joke. Hendriks had success doing something different in AAA than he has done in the MLB. The Twins know it and have made comments about it (I imagine exactly what Gardy is referencing) and Dickbert have alluded to it. I don't buy he doesn't have the stuff. With as good as his results were in AAA, you have to have something. A straight FB or a whimpy curve in AAA get pounded as hard as they do in the MLB.

  16. #16
    badsmerf, while there are some good hitters in AAA, there is no lineup in AAA that matches any lineup in the bigs....what i see with hendricks is in AAA he gets most of the close calls or the hitters are swinging, while i dont think he has good stuff , i do think he is deceptive, he throws across his body and he short arms the ball, making it harder to pick up, which should be very difficult for AAA hitters but with big leaguers they see him , then they see lots of video & they are the best hitters in the world, they figure it out.....what hendricks needs to be successful on a consistent basis is 1) a good ump..2) a good called game by his catcher 3) excellent location & change speeds.4) a little luck....i do believe that he can pitch in the bigs as #5 or long reliever, my argument was with the ones on here saying he has the stuff to be a 2 or #3, some even said a poor mans #1...if i remember correctly last year brad mills dominated in vegas & everytime he got promoted he got hammered, everyone said if he can dominate vegas he can pitch in the bigs, sometimes things just go your way, you get all the breaks , they pop up that fastball at the belt , but in the bigs it catches up to you if you dont have the stuff or atleast 1 out pitch....look up mills #s this year...

  17. #17
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringer bell View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TwinsMusings View Post
    I agree with others who have already said he needs to pitch inside more often, but maybe one of the reasons he is less effective in the majors than he was in the minors is major league hitters can hit breaking balls much more consistently effectively taking away his best 'out' pitch. Last night he was simply not able to put away hitters when he had two strikes on them. Has anyone done a count of how many two-strike foul balls they hit off him? It is those long at bats that run up the pitch count just as much as missing the corners or not getting the strike calls.
    Two parts to this: 1) Missing bats--Hendriks doesn't have the kind of stuff challenge hitters and get strikeouts. It shows when he is hitting his spots, but getting long counts with lots of foul balls. 2) Lack of movement and deception. The fastball looks really straight to me and when Hendriks changed speeds or threw a breaking ball, it didn't appear to fool hitters. As written above, I also thought he threw a lot of good pitches at the knees and didn't get much help from the ump. I don't know what the solution is, although I have seen guys succeed with less in their tool kit than Hendriks has.
    I've seen Hendriks in person twice so far, against Seattle and most recently the Indians. Against Seattle his fastball had decent movement away, he was coming inside as well effectively and his change up was very deceptive and progressed as the game went on, he managed to SO 6. The Indians game was a different story, his command was not there from the start but I believe the poor strike zone low and on the inside part of the plate somewhat affected him, he left far too many pitches up and one has to wonder whether the lack of calls down low for him was a factor. I believe he has the stuff to succeed but his confidence seems shaky up here, he was too passive against Cleveland and needs to challenge more and trust his stuff. Working ahead always helps too, something he very much needs to get consistent on.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    Hendriks has the problem stated above, no out pitch in the majors. Good teams mash this type of pitch and unless he can get more movement on his pitchers, he may top out as a triple a starter. At least this will help Rochester next year, Blackburn, Hendriks, Vasquez and Hernandez as part of a starting rotation with a decent pen should make them a contender.
    Twins still need to sign at least 2 decent FA pitchers or trade hitting assets to obtain them(more likely).

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