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Thread: Article: Justin Morneau Reminds Twins Fans That He's Still Here

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    If it comes down to something like that, I would hope they bring the pitcher (or pitchers) in first, then look to deal Morneau away later if they insist on trimming payroll. You don't want to deal Morneau early, then find you don't have any decent players to spend his money on.
    You don't wanna sign these arms and then teams know you're up against the wall when trying to move Morneau or Willingham. You never want to give a team an edge in that sense.

  2. #42
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
    You don't wanna sign these arms and then teams know you're up against the wall when trying to move Morneau or Willingham. You never want to give a team an edge in that sense.
    You were advocating dumping him for nothing anyway, so what's the difference?


    Or they could bite the bullet, not axe payroll, bring the players in, win more games, make more money, and try to stop the downward spiral that they're quickly getting themselves into. I'm with Chief here, do they really need to cut payroll?
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post

    .
    Having the will to sign them is another. We'll see how much "Will" Terry Ryan has this off-season.

    For now, I'm not getting my hopes up. He has said that he doesn't think free agency is the way to acquire starting pitching -- if he spends more than $12-$15 million, I'll be surprised. Look for a Pavano-type (not Pavano but an innings eater) and someone like Baker (cheap plus incentives).
    If free agency isn't the way, then a trade has to be the more appealing option in Ryan's eyes. Who brings back the better pitcher: Morneau, Parmelee, Willingham, Span, or Revere? Or, maybe you look to prospects like Hicks or Arcia who are good prospects in the high minors, especially knowing you still have Buxton and Kepler in the system.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    You were advocating dumping him for nothing anyway, so what's the difference?


    Or they could bite the bullet, not axe payroll, bring the players in, win more games, make more money, and try to stop the downward spiral that they're quickly getting themselves into. I'm with Chief here, do they really need to cut payroll?

    I wouldn't have cared if the Twins dropped Morneau off at the trash burner next to TF, whatever gets rid of his salary. But at this point it's pretty clear the Twins think they can actually get some value outta the dumb Canuck. So if that's the case then you don't wanna give another team a heads up in working out a trade.

    As for winning games next season...I think we all realize that's a pipedream at best. This is a bad bad bad team, there's little to no help that's gonna contribute from the minors and the front office is gonna cut payroll more. Do they need to cut payroll, ofcourse not. But this is the ****ing Pohalds were talking about here, it's like people forgot how cheap they were cause they raped the city and state for a new stadium.

  5. #45
    I think DPJ's comments are misguided. DPJ wants to drop "Morneau off at the trash burner next to TF," and don't believe the Twins will "actually get some value outta the dumb Canuck," yet seems to conceed the Pohlad's won't sign any free agents gained with the salary relief by moving Morneau.

    By these statements there are only a couple explanations left for making sure Morneau isn't on the Twins in 2013.

    One is because DPJ dosn't think Morneau is a good baseball player and the Twins would be better with someone else (presumably Parmelee). If that's the case, I think you're wrong. An .888 OPS since the all-star break means Morneau is pretty good. Morneau is a solid first baseman and he is compensated accordingly. As far as Parmelee, the best lineup the Twins could present would feature Morneau and Parmelee.

    The other explanation is that you want the Twins to field a bad team so they drop attendance to a level where the Pohlads can move the team. If that's the case, I'm sorry, Jake Taylor, Ricky Vaughn, Roger Dorn, and Willie "Mays" Hayes are not available to play for the Twins.

    I think the Twins have the position players to compete in 2013. Their lineup is solid as evidenced by scoring the 3rd most runs since the all-star break (behind only the Angels and the A's). One could say that a weakness in the lineup is lack of power and that certainly isn't going to improve by moving Morneau.

  6. #46
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    The Twins aren't gonna contend for quite a few years. Morneau is a 31 year old 1B with the injury history of a world war 2 veteran. He's expensive, he's injury-prone and he's not getting any younger. Morneau isn't part of the future for this team, but Parmelee potentially is. You dump Morneau, you get the arms in here that won't make you a laughing stock around the league and you hope to dig yourself outta being one of the worst teams in the league.

    Bad teams get rid of expensive players, it's what you do. Especially when you have a MLB ready 1B waiting in the wings who makes 400K a season.

  7. #47
    Bad teams don't get rid of expensive players, bad teams try to get better.

    At the current payroll, the Twins should have the flexibility to add significant starting pitching and keep Morneau for 2013. Also, not contending for quite a few years doesn't appear to be Terry Ryan's strategy, otherwise why keep Willingham, Span and Perkins and extend Doumit? If you're in full rebuild mode, why not call up more than 2 minor leaguers for September? I think Terry Ryan's plan is to try to contend in 2013. If things go bad right away, you still have the opportunity to move veterans at the trade deadline.

    Injuries happen to everyone. Didn't Parmelee sit the last few games due to soreness?

    I also don't think Parmelee will find a long term home at 1B, at least not with the Twins. Morneau is playing there now and if everything remains the same will be there for 2013. Mauer is only catching half the games in 2012, how many games will Mauer be playing at 1B by 2014? My hope is that Parmelee takes ownership of RF.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by mk View Post
    Bad teams don't get rid of expensive players, bad teams try to get better.

    At the current payroll, the Twins should have the flexibility to add significant starting pitching and keep Morneau for 2013. Also, not contending for quite a few years doesn't appear to be Terry Ryan's strategy, otherwise why keep Willingham, Span and Perkins and extend Doumit? If you're in full rebuild mode, why not call up more than 2 minor leaguers for September? I think Terry Ryan's plan is to try to contend in 2013. If things go bad right away, you still have the opportunity to move veterans at the trade deadline.

    Injuries happen to everyone. Didn't Parmelee sit the last few games due to soreness?

    I also don't think Parmelee will find a long term home at 1B, at least not with the Twins. Morneau is playing there now and if everything remains the same will be there for 2013. Mauer is only catching half the games in 2012, how many games will Mauer be playing at 1B by 2014? My hope is that Parmelee takes ownership of RF.
    And bad teams get better by sheding expensive players when they have a MLB ready kid in the farm system who makes nothing ready to roll.

    None of us know what JR's strategy is, but it doesn't matter what he wants...the Twins won't compete for atleast a few years. The bottom line is the Twins are one of the worst teams in the league and JR ain't going out to sign Greinke &Jackson to get this team right. Sit back and actually look at this team, cause it's a very very bad baseball team.

    As for injuries, I know you're not trying to compare Parm's injury history to Morneau.

  9. #49
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mk View Post
    Bad teams don't get rid of expensive players, bad teams try to get better.

    At the current payroll, the Twins should have the flexibility to add significant starting pitching and keep Morneau for 2013. Also, not contending for quite a few years doesn't appear to be Terry Ryan's strategy, otherwise why keep Willingham, Span and Perkins and extend Doumit? If you're in full rebuild mode, why not call up more than 2 minor leaguers for September? I think Terry Ryan's plan is to try to contend in 2013. If things go bad right away, you still have the opportunity to move veterans at the trade deadline.

    Injuries happen to everyone. Didn't Parmelee sit the last few games due to soreness?

    I also don't think Parmelee will find a long term home at 1B, at least not with the Twins. Morneau is playing there now and if everything remains the same will be there for 2013. Mauer is only catching half the games in 2012, how many games will Mauer be playing at 1B by 2014? My hope is that Parmelee takes ownership of RF.
    And bad teams get better by sheding expensive players when they have a MLB ready kid in the farm system who makes nothing ready to roll.

    None of us know what JR's strategy is, but it doesn't matter what he wants...the Twins won't compete for atleast a few years. The bottom line is the Twins are one of the worst teams in the league and JR ain't going out to sign Greinke &Jackson to get this team right. Sit back and actually look at this team, cause it's a very very bad baseball team.

    As for injuries, I know you're not trying to compare Parm's injury history to Morneau.
    The Twins are one of the worst teams in baseball but Greinke and Jackson are going to make it right? It's laughable that you contend the team is so very, very bad yet suggest this is what it takes to set it right.

  10. #50
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
    The Twins aren't gonna contend for quite a few years. Morneau is a 31 year old 1B with the injury history of a world war 2 veteran. He's expensive, he's injury-prone and he's not getting any younger. Morneau isn't part of the future for this team, but Parmelee potentially is. You dump Morneau, you get the arms in here that won't make you a laughing stock around the league and you hope to dig yourself outta being one of the worst teams in the league.

    Bad teams get rid of expensive players, it's what you do. Especially when you have a MLB ready 1B waiting in the wings who makes 400K a season.
    The problem is the extremism of your position. I have NO problem with replacing Morneau with a younger, cheaper player (presumably Parmelee). You don't want to extend Morneau, I have no problem with that -- I'm not in favor of it either.

    The problem is that he IS signed for 2013 and the Twins will have to pay him $14 million (unless he retires but I'm pretty sure that isn't going to happen). So the question is how do you maximize your return?

    It seems to me that if you can't find a trade for him this winter (even if it is a salary dump) then you have to hope and pray that he stays healthy and that you can trade him next summer.


    But the other problem is that I'm not at all sure that the Twins would actually spend the savings from moving Morneau's contract. So it seems to me that you have to think about whether you want them reducing payroll by getting rid of salary -- maybe it's better to have Morneau's pay in the salary total even though payroll isn't allocated the way you want. I think we all have to be concerned about whether the savings created by moving a contract some how become permanent payroll reductions.

  11. #51
    Bad teams don't get better by shedding good players, regardless of how much they're paid. Look at the Pirates. Prior to this year they've been a bad team ever since Bonds left for San Francisco. That was 20 years ago. I hope Terry Ryan isn't on the 20-year rebuilding plan.

    Ryan isn't going to sign Greinke and Jackson, probably true, so why the need to conserve payroll by getting rid of Morneau?

    "None of us know what JR's strategy is," I'll agree with that, but I'm sure he has a strategy. It just appears to me that with the moves he's made since becoming interim GM points to trying to contend sooner rather than later. Willingham signed through 2014. Doumit signed through 2014. Jamey Carroll signed through 2013. Liriano traded for 2 players that spent time in the majors. What evidence is there that Ryan is planning for 2015 and beyond? I think if he was building for 2015, we'd have seen Span and Morneau traded instead of signing Willingham and Doumit.

    Also, not comparing injury histories, just trying to make a point that injuries happen. Yes, Morneau has an injury history. So does Willingham, Span, Mauer, and everyone else not named Ripken Jr. or Gehrig. Parmelee has sat out the last few games, we don't know what his injury history will be.

  12. #52
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    Or he hasn't traded those guys in a misguided attempt to stay "relevant" while also rebuilding. There is no evidence, based on last year and over a decade of him as GM that he is willing to sign players or trade for them, to vastly increase the payroll by acquiring very good players. I am willing to see what the strategy is this off-season, but I am betting I will not like it.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by mk View Post
    Bad teams don't get better by shedding good players, regardless of how much they're paid. Look at the Pirates. Prior to this year they've been a bad team ever since Bonds left for San Francisco. That was 20 years ago. I hope Terry Ryan isn't on the 20-year rebuilding plan.
    What the hell do the Pirates have to do with this? Morneau isn't part of the future, he won't be here whenever they contend again. So you ditch that salary so you can play the cheap MLB ready 1B you have. What the hell is so hard to understand about this?

    Quote Originally Posted by twinsnorth49 View Post
    The Twins are one of the worst teams in baseball but Greinke and Jackson are going to make it right? It's laughable that you contend the team is so very, very bad yet suggest this is what it takes to set it right.
    I mentioned Greinke and Jackson cause they're arms that could make an impact. Even if the Twins were to sign them both I don't think they sniff 80 wins, I just used the two top arms that will be on the market...my god man.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Or he hasn't traded those guys in a misguided attempt to stay "relevant" while also rebuilding. There is no evidence, based on last year and over a decade of him as GM that he is willing to sign players or trade for them, to vastly increase the payroll by acquiring very good players. I am willing to see what the strategy is this off-season, but I am betting I will not like it.
    One thing to consider is limited payroll through much of Ryan's tenure. Ryan's highest payroll came in 2007, the year before Smith became GM. That payroll "ballooned" to $71 mil because Mauer, Morneau, and Cuddyer were arb eligible and an increase in revenues via a new stadium was finally approved.

    As for increasing payroll via free agency or trade, it's easy to forget that Rick Reed was owed $15mil for his 37 and 38-year-old seasons. Shannon Stewart was also expensive, but he added a bit more value as I remember.

  15. #55
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    Let's review DPJ's statements just in this thread:

    "I would have let the Dodgers have him for nothing. Let Parmelee play 1st base and use the funds to get some arms."

    When reminded the Twins already have the funds,

    "true, but it gives them the ability to overpay."

    When reminded the Twins could trade Morneau after overpaying:

    "You don't wanna sign these arms and then teams know you're up against the wall when trying to move Morneau..."

    In the space of three posts we've gone from dumping him for nothing to worrying about the return.

    Two posts after THAT, he admits the Twins won't use the money saved to sign good FA pitching anyway.

    Hard to argue with the logic in this thread...

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mk View Post
    Bad teams don't get better by shedding good players, regardless of how much they're paid. Look at the Pirates. Prior to this year they've been a bad team ever since Bonds left for San Francisco. That was 20 years ago. I hope Terry Ryan isn't on the 20-year rebuilding plan.
    What the hell do the Pirates have to do with this? Morneau isn't part of the future, he won't be here whenever they contend again. So you ditch that salary so you can play the cheap MLB ready 1B you have. What the hell is so hard to understand about this?

    Quote Originally Posted by twinsnorth49 View Post
    The Twins are one of the worst teams in baseball but Greinke and Jackson are going to make it right? It's laughable that you contend the team is so very, very bad yet suggest this is what it takes to set it right.
    I mentioned Greinke and Jackson cause they're arms that could make an impact. Even if the Twins were to sign them both I don't think they sniff 80 wins, I just used the two top arms that will be on the market...my god man.
    I used the Pirates as an example because ditching salary is what they did when they began two decades of losing.

    I guess the part I don't understand is why anyone who doesn't want the Twins to win spends so much time on a Twins message board.

    Ditching salary does not make team better. And, if you think doing a salary dump of $14mil in 2012 would carry into anything the Twins do in 2015, I think you're wrong there too.

  17. #57
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    1. Yes I would have let the Dodgers have him for nothing.
    2. They very well might have to overpay to get some decent arms in here. Bad teams more often then not have to overpay to get talent.
    3. I said it's pretty clear that the Twins think they can get some value outta Morneau. I disagree, but if that's the plan you're going with, dont' let teams get the upperhand on you.

  18. #58
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    What did Ryan do with the payroll in his first year back? He signed Willingham for less than the guy he replaced. He signed doumit for less than the guy he replaced. He signed a couple of relief pitchers for decent prices, and he signed marquis.....so for me, I want to see someones behavior change before I am willing to say it has changed. That seems reasonable to me.

  19. #59
    I think Ryan managed the 2012 payroll pretty well. Willingham is outproducing the guy he replaced and Doumit can serve as backup catcher so we don't need to see Butera behind the plate half the time. I think that's two solid pluses for Ryan. He also didn't overspend for guys like Jose Reyes or Jimmy Rollins (not that they were even talked about, but the Twins know they need a shortstop too).

    In terms of the Twins most glaring weakness, starting pitching, I like to think Ryan thought/hoped he could get something useful out of Pavano, Baker, Liriano, and Marquis. Those guys won't be a factor on the rotation for 2013 but hopefully the $23.5 mil they were paid will be used to aquire others who can contribute. How many spots do you have to fill? Diamond has been good. Deduno has a sub 4 ERA. DeVries has looked good since coming up. If those are your 3-5 guys, you have a shot, right?

    To tell the truth, I wasn't very excited about the Marquis signing either. It seemed Ryan was trying to reincarnate Kenny Rogers from 2003 or Terry Mulholland from 2004. Instead he got the second coming of Sidney Ponson. He also shook the dice and lost on Zumaya for $850K. It was a long shot, but may demonstrate that Ryan is weighing risk/reward when making these decisions.

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