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Thread: Difference in minor league philosiphy

  1. #41
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.
    Well perhaps that goes back to developing too slowly . . .

    The Twins approach with Parmelee and Benson was fine up until 2011 when they both should have gotten a taste of Rochester. Hicks' movement through has been good. Arcia's movement is much better. They could have kept him in Fort Myers for the whole year in the name of proper development and "seasoning" but they rightly didn't.
    Joe Benson's cumulative at New Britain in 2011 was not so great as to say he was overqualified to be there. His 28 games at Rochester this year showed he did not belong there this year. Prior to 2011 he moved through a couple of levels every year. Developed too slowly? Don't think so.
    In 472 plate appearances in 2011 at New Britain: .285/.388/.495, 28 doubles, 3 triples, 16 homers. Not sure what on earth you are talking about. Between 2010 and 2011 he had 900 damn plate appearances at New Britain with 39 homers and an OPS around .874. So, again, I don't know what you are talking about.

    With regard to Rochester in 2012, first he was injured, second he has 108 plate appearances. The appropriate decision was to let him overcome struggles in AAA. AAA still is the closest to the majors. He's a top prospect . . . demoting back to a level where he was great at for 900 plate appearances prior to 2012 is terribly stupid.

  2. #42
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    Those were nice numbers by Benson, the 2nd time around at New Britian but they sure weren't dominating numbers. If you go back and look at Kubel's numbers at AA you will see dominating numbers. That is why he was promoted so agressively. Cuddyer's numbers at New Britian (the 2nd year) were pretty dominating. My thoughts about this promoting too slowly stuff, is that the player tends to show where he belongs. Hicks is a top prospect, but his numbers last year at Fort Myers didn't scream, Promote Me. Even this year, the numbers are good, and got better, mostly, during the year. Still there isn't anything dominating about them.

    What the Twins often seem to try to do is put their best prospects at where they seem to belong, filling in with what is largely, well, filler. For example, despite what were largely poor numbers, Plouffe was actually promoted quite agressively till he got to AAA. There he stalled out. Now, hard as is it to believe, Plouffe moght of been promoted TOO agressively. There is no exact science to promoting and developing prospects. Clearly, sometimes prospects are demoted to give them a kick in the pants. That happened after AJ made it the majors for a fall callup. He actually started in AA the next year as wakeup call.

    We all know that promoting top prospects too aggressively can backfire to various degrees. We saw it closeup with Young and Gomez. Neither was fundementally sound when they reached the majors, and while they weren't necessarily horrible with the Twins, their time here was mostly a disaster, perhaps in part because they had been promoted too agressively.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.
    Well perhaps that goes back to developing too slowly . . .

    The Twins approach with Parmelee and Benson was fine up until 2011 when they both should have gotten a taste of Rochester. Hicks' movement through has been good. Arcia's movement is much better. They could have kept him in Fort Myers for the whole year in the name of proper development and "seasoning" but they rightly didn't.
    Joe Benson's cumulative at New Britain in 2011 was not so great as to say he was overqualified to be there. His 28 games at Rochester this year showed he did not belong there this year. Prior to 2011 he moved through a couple of levels every year. Developed too slowly? Don't think so.
    In 472 plate appearances in 2011 at New Britain: .285/.388/.495, 28 doubles, 3 triples, 16 homers. Not sure what on earth you are talking about. Between 2010 and 2011 he had 900 damn plate appearances at New Britain with 39 homers and an OPS around .874. So, again, I don't know what you are talking about.

    With regard to Rochester in 2012, first he was injured, second he has 108 plate appearances. The appropriate decision was to let him overcome struggles in AAA. AAA still is the closest to the majors. He's a top prospect . . . demoting back to a level where he was great at for 900 plate appearances prior to 2012 is terribly stupid.
    First off, I said overqualified. Benson had very good numbers at New Brittain. They were not good enough to make him an All Star for the Eastern league.
    All reports I read and can go back and find deal with Benson having an attiude at Rochester. There is no mention of an injury. The hand soreness developed after he was a New Britain and could have well been caused by him punching a wall yet again. His performance with a bat at Rochester was poor. 100 plate appearance is an adequate sample size to give him a chance to work it out.
    Last edited by old nurse; 09-15-2012 at 10:31 AM.

  4. #44
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    [/QUOTE]First off, I said overqualified. Benson had very good numbers at New Brittain. They were not good enough to make him an All Star for the Eastern league.
    All reports I read and can go back and find deal with Benson having an attiude at Rochester. There is no mention of an injury. The hand soreness developed after he was a New Britain and could have well been caused by him punching a wall yet again. His performance with a bat at Rochester was poor. 100 plate appearance is an adequate sample size to give him a chance to work it out.[/QUOTE]

    Your comment about 'Benson having an attitude at Rochester' is not an accurate description of what I understand the problem was. This statement tells me he was a problem and 'having an attitude' would indicate something negative. To discuss the problem, one needs to begin with discussing Benson's very competitive nature. The problem at Rochester as I have heard from their announcers and people writing in the Democrat and Chronicle was that his competitive nature combined with an early slump caused him to get very down on himself as he tried to improve his results, ie, he was putting tremendous pressure on himself to do better. To me, that is not an attitute problem. Perhaps to you it is.

    He dealt with two injuries this year. The hand injury was not soreness, it was a broken hamate bone which required surgery. Again referring to local writers, they referred to a specific game when it happened. Making a statement about 'him punching a wall yet again" is throwing things out on the internet that just should not be there. If you have something to support such a claim, please let us know where it came from.

    As for not being injured at Rochester, we don't know if that is true. We know when his hand was injured and that was after he was demoted to New Britain. He later had knee surgery. I have not seen anything telling us about when his knee was injured, perhaps Seth knows more. What I can gather is that it was something he was dealing with and the doctors went in to clean it out. When in surgery, they found it was more serious than they thought and instead of being a few week recovery he was shut down for at least four months. Without knowing exactly what was involved with the surgery, it appears he had been dealing with a knee problem for some time which may, or may not, have been present while in Rochester and may, or may not, have affected his play.

    Twins Daily is an exciting and wildly successful blog with tremendous readership. Please don't put things out there that are merely speculation. Again, if you have specific information supporting your position please provide it so we all will know more about what really happened to a very talented and athletic young man.

  5. #45
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    I think a lot of us are forgetting how long it takes a draft class to make it's mark. We're complaining about recent drafts but the 06 draft, for instance, is just starting to show up in the majors. It took Morneau (99) until 2005 to break out. Hunter (93) had his first good ML year in 01. Span (02) had a solid rookie year in 08. Cuddyer (97) wasn't an everyday player until 04. Plouffe (04) looked like a bust until this year.
    Well perhaps that goes back to developing too slowly . . .

    The Twins approach with Parmelee and Benson was fine up until 2011 when they both should have gotten a taste of Rochester. Hicks' movement through has been good. Arcia's movement is much better. They could have kept him in Fort Myers for the whole year in the name of proper development and "seasoning" but they rightly didn't.
    Joe Benson's cumulative at New Britain in 2011 was not so great as to say he was overqualified to be there. His 28 games at Rochester this year showed he did not belong there this year. Prior to 2011 he moved through a couple of levels every year. Developed too slowly? Don't think so.
    In 472 plate appearances in 2011 at New Britain: .285/.388/.495, 28 doubles, 3 triples, 16 homers. Not sure what on earth you are talking about. Between 2010 and 2011 he had 900 damn plate appearances at New Britain with 39 homers and an OPS around .874. So, again, I don't know what you are talking about.

    With regard to Rochester in 2012, first he was injured, second he has 108 plate appearances. The appropriate decision was to let him overcome struggles in AAA. AAA still is the closest to the majors. He's a top prospect . . . demoting back to a level where he was great at for 900 plate appearances prior to 2012 is terribly stupid.
    First off, I said overqualified. Benson had very good numbers at New Brittain. They were not good enough to make him an All Star for the Eastern league.
    All reports I read and can go back and find deal with Benson having an attiude at Rochester. There is no mention of an injury. The hand soreness developed after he was a New Britain and could have well been caused by him punching a wall yet again. His performance with a bat at Rochester was poor. 100 plate appearance is an adequate sample size to give him a chance to work it out.
    Some big-time speculation here. Conversation over.

  6. #46
    Benson's struggles in ROC can also be traced....I believe....to frustration.
    He & Parmelee have played together at every level. Benson has been the better prospect, by ranking, but Chris outplayed him in Sept & made the team out of spring training. Surely that got his attention.
    Then the team completely admits they dont have a RFer in mind & never consider him once. They go throu Doumit, Revere (sent back), Komatsu (rule v), Mastoianni & Clete Thomas(waivers) in April but NEVER considered the former minor league player of the year. Mn has often called up a player who had been strugglin in AAA before (and they succeded in majors)...but never even had Joe in its sights & I think the frustration set in at ROC.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I think the biggest difference in philosophy between the Twins and winners is the Twins lack of willingness to deal big time prospects for proven major league players.
    Dealing top proscects generally backfires. When the twins dealt Ramos people were furious.

  8. #48
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    Dealing a top prospect for a relief pitcher is stupid. What does that have to so with trading for something of actual value?

  9. #49
    They offered Ramos for Cliff Lee and the Mariners turned the offer down.

  10. #50
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    First off, I said overqualified. Benson had very good numbers at New Brittain. They were not good enough to make him an All Star for the Eastern league.
    All reports I read and can go back and find deal with Benson having an attiude at Rochester. There is no mention of an injury. The hand soreness developed after he was a New Britain and could have well been caused by him punching a wall yet again. His performance with a bat at Rochester was poor. 100 plate appearance is an adequate sample size to give him a chance to work it out.[/QUOTE]

    Your comment about 'Benson having an attitude at Rochester' is not an accurate description of what I understand the problem was. This statement tells me he was a problem and 'having an attitude' would indicate something negative. To discuss the problem, one needs to begin with discussing Benson's very competitive nature. The problem at Rochester as I have heard from their announcers and people writing in the Democrat and Chronicle was that his competitive nature combined with an early slump caused him to get very down on himself as he tried to improve his results, ie, he was putting tremendous pressure on himself to do better. To me, that is not an attitute problem. Perhaps to you it is.

    He dealt with two injuries this year. The hand injury was not soreness, it was a broken hamate bone which required surgery. Again referring to local writers, they referred to a specific game when it happened. Making a statement about 'him punching a wall yet again" is throwing things out on the internet that just should not be there. If you have something to support such a claim, please let us know where it came from.

    As for not being injured at Rochester, we don't know if that is true. We know when his hand was injured and that was after he was demoted to New Britain. He later had knee surgery. I have not seen anything telling us about when his knee was injured, perhaps Seth knows more. What I can gather is that it was something he was dealing with and the doctors went in to clean it out. When in surgery, they found it was more serious than they thought and instead of being a few week recovery he was shut down for at least four months. Without knowing exactly what was involved with the surgery, it appears he had been dealing with a knee problem for some time which may, or may not, have been present while in Rochester and may, or may not, have affected his play.

    Twins Daily is an exciting and wildly successful blog with tremendous readership. Please don't put things out there that are merely speculation. Again, if you have specific information supporting your position please provide it so we all will know more about what really happened to a very talented and athletic young man.[/QUOTE]


    Getting down on yourself because you are not performing well and saying it is because you are so competitive is an attitude problem. Many people on this board read a slash line, never see a player play and call management stupid for the handling of the players. Through the year the Twins do promote players that are playing well despite what the statistics oriented people think. Look it up. So why didn't they move up Benson last year midseason when they moved him up midseason before? You can speculate and call the Twins stupid. You could speculate the Twins saw a hole in his game that got exposed with a call up the next year. Competitive nature or used to being better than everyone else? No story mentioned what he did to try to make himself better, only that he got down on himself. The story was his mindset or attitude. Call it what you want.
    Hand soreness is the listed reason they took him out of the lineup at New Brittain. No cause listed as to why there was hand soreness like being hit with a pitch. Yes your hand will be very sore with a broken bone in it. That is what they discover investigating the hand soreness. When it is a game caused injury, it is listed. There are people who track these things. There was no injury listed. Past behavior has been reported.
    If people on this board did not put speculative ideas out there there would not be much out here. When you agree with it, you call it analysis.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by greengoblinrulz View Post
    Benson's struggles in ROC can also be traced....I believe....to frustration.
    Mn has often called up a player who had been strugglin in AAA before (and they succeded in majors)...but never even had Joe in its sights & I think the frustration set in at ROC.
    Please, feel free to name some hitters as I'm curious because I couldn't think of any. Also, what is meant by "success?" The one who defied his minor league numbers is Span, in that he's been mostly able to reproduce his minor league numbers (which until he was 24 would have made him a AAAA player). He always showed good plate discipline but never posted an .800 OPS in the minors for a full season (and in fact was below .700 for many). However, before he was called up, even he started tearing things up in AAA.

    Joe Benson had a couple of good seasons at AAA. He was called up last fall and didn't look all that ready, so AAA was a good spot for him to start the season. He did have some injuries this year, so it's hard to actually gauge, but he didn't do anything at any point that merited consideration of making this roster, especially when other OF were performing better. He did nothing to deserve a ML callup. (I'd argue the same for Dozier, but even that was at an incredibly weak position).
    Last edited by Alex; 09-16-2012 at 07:54 PM.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Many people on this board read a slash line, never see a player play and call management stupid for the handling of the players. Through the year the Twins do promote players that are playing well despite what the statistics oriented people think.
    You might want to take a look at what statistics oriented people have said about Twins players/moves and then compare them to the moves the Twins have made this season. In some cases, those projections agree, and both groups have been wrong about different players. I've followed things pretty closely, though, and the Twins management could certainly use more statistical analysis.
    Last edited by Alex; 09-16-2012 at 07:58 PM.

  13. #53
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    So what does that have to do with trading from a position of scarcity for a relief pitcher? Someone turned them down for a good pitcher, so they made a had trade? I do not follow what you are trying to communicate.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Many people on this board read a slash line, never see a player play and call management stupid for the handling of the players. Through the year the Twins do promote players that are playing well despite what the statistics oriented people think.
    You might want to take a look at what statistics oriented people have said about Twins players/moves and then compare them to the moves the Twins have made this season. In some cases, those projections agree, and both groups have been wrong about different players. I've followed things pretty closely, though, and the Twins management could certainly use more statistical analysis.
    You don't think the Twins are more interested in the skills of the developing player? Somewhere in the files is all the information charted from the game. They ought to know what pitches the players hit, what they miss. As they go up a level there should be less mistakes to hit. Likewise they know how good they are doing against the better pitchers. That should be what they are basing decisions on. It explains Buxton moving up despite the overall bad statistics in the GCL. If it were only batting line that mattered in the minor leagues, there would be no need to chart games. This year there was a lot of movement upwards midseason.
    Given the nature of injuries the last two years it would appear that AAA is not being used as much for development from AA as it is tuning up major league experienced players and sorting through to find the extra outfielder, emergency infielder, next arm to trot out of the bullpen, etc. The reluctance to let some of the players go that did not work out has some explanation. One could speculate why, but if someone does not like the answer, you get savaged.

  15. #55
    Very well put. Rance needs to go.

  16. #56
    You ate barking the wrong tree with Rams and Roberts. Rams is done, fizzled. He matured early and the bread is hard. As for Roberts, if he can't stay healthy why have him? Seems like he is an avoider of the tough times. He stayed on the DL during the cold months and back on the DL during the dog days. You do the math. If I have a plow horse, I do not want him injured when it time to plant.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Are we really complaining about how the Twins advance hitting prospects? This organization has been churning out very good hitting prospects for over ten years now. Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, Kubel, Span, Revere, Parmelee... In the wings, they have Arcia, Hicks, Rosario, Sano, and Buxton.

    Hitting isn't the problem and I don't think we should be complaining about how the Twins advance their position prospects. They've done a very good job of preparing these guys for Major League pitching.
    6 in ten years is churning out? and 2 of these 6 are still questionable....twins need to fire the entire system and hire real baseball people
    ones that can teach....

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