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Thread: John Shipley: Florimon has team weighing move for Dozier

  1. #21
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Also with regard to Drew, I had him in my fantasy league in 2007, 2009, and 2011. So, I can't be trusted with any assessment of his value for the Twins . . .

  2. #22
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-Dog Dungan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by greengoblinrulz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpantheMan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by minn55441 View Post

    I think Florimon still has some upside.
    As much upside as Parmelee at 3b?

    Florimon as the starting SS for a winning major league baseball team is wishful thinking at best.
    Parmelee at 3b is wishful thinking. And good teams often have good glove/no hit shortstops
    There is no hit shortstops & then there is Florimon.......believe you're thinking about wrong decade
    Teams in contention (top 2 each division)
    AL--Jeter/Hardy/Ramirez/Peralta/Andrus/Drew....all hitters
    NL--Desmond/Simmons/Cozart/Furcal/Crawford/Ramirez----give ya Cozart & Crawford but they are both plus defenders (UZR)....something Florimon hasnt even shown yet
    10 of 12 hitters of some degreee......losing teams have no hit shortstops
    Since when is Drew a good-hitting shortstop?
    Florimon doesn't have a job locked up. We need depth... If we can sign someone better... OK... Lets roll... If we don't... Let's see what happens. I think the Twins should roll some players and have them compete. Unless we find a SS that hits extremely well and that's a tough find. Take the better defender everytime and don't worry about .220 compared to .230 or .240...

    Right now I don't care what his UZR is. I'm not counting his errors either. Florimon has made some plays that good shortstops make so I'm willing to watch him. He's hit the ball at times as well and chased badly at other times. I'm ok with letting him see a little more of Verlander, Weaver and JA Happ.

    Stephen Drew is a mess... How he gets on the list... I don't know... Ian Desmond hit like crap the two years prior before hitting Ok this year.

    Simmons hasn't proven to be anybody yet and he certainly didn't play enough to pull the Braves into the playoffs. Furcal had some amazing years and a bunch of Mendoza years... Hardy hits for Power... He's the Adam Dunn of Shortstops. Peralta... Is Hardy like with less power. If this is a hitting SS list... The only conclusion that can be drawn is that SS's are pretty weak at the plate.

    However... When making a point like you are making about hitting Shortstops being the lifeblood of winning baseball teams... You also have to go to the other side. Tulo hits the snot out of the ball and the Rockies are in last place. Rutledge has been hitting very well in his absence. The Rockies ain't dancing. Aviles hits pretty well for a SS... The Red Sox aint dancing... Escobar has been fantastic for the Royals... Royals ain't making the playoffs this year. What about that Asdrubal guy in Northern Ohio. Jose Reyes in Miami... Damn fine hitter... Rollins in Philly... That Castro kid playing on the North Side of Chicago... Oh my God he is as good as they come at the plate. Now Lowrie has been hurt a bit but he's got a decent stroke for Houston. His Average needs to come up but he can find the Crawford Boxes.

    We may have to take a show of Twins Daily hands... But I'm willing to say that my list of Hitting Shortstops on the losing teams is stronger than your list of hitting Shortstops on Winning teams.

    We need PITCHING!!! And when it comes to placing that pitching on the mound... It will be quite helpful to that pitching if we had a SS who can catch and throw AND... Make a couple of plays that they are not supposed to make. I'd love to have a prospect like Profar and I'd love to have a guy like Tulo... We don't have that guy so I'll settle for someone who gets dirty. Stephen Drew is not that guy.
    Last edited by Riverbrian; 09-16-2012 at 11:23 PM.

  3. #23
    This shows that good teams have good shortstops & also bad teams have good shortstops (didnt say great)......MN has never even had a league average shortstop for almost a decade (since Guzzie left & that's the HIGH point of SS's the past 2 decades).
    Florimon is 26 already & has never even put up a solid minor league season. The Twins are playing him out of desparation OR are they trying to prove the scout who recommended him to MN correct ( is he the Gray/Nishi/Butera/etc scout??).
    Regardless of whether people like defensive metrics.....they arent skewed to go against Pedro only. His numbers are attrocious after his first 25 or so games.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    With regard to Stephen Drew, from 2008 to 2010 he was a good hitter for his position, and every year other than this he has been significantly better than any other option the Twins have. And even in 2012 he has been better than some of them.

    With regard to Florimon, he seems to really get down on himself. This is the opposite of Casilla who doesn't appear to care. Florimon is a make-the-spectacular-plays-and-miss-the-routine-plays kind of shortstop and Jamey Carroll is the EXACT opposite. Pick your poison defensively. Carroll is creeping up offensively as well. Florimon has only 99 plate appearances with the Twins this year. Calm the hell down.

    With regard to Dozier, obviously he is a second baseman. That has been clear this year. It's a good thing the Twins called him up again to play there in September. Oh wait. Well, it's a good thing after his demotion to Rochester he played 2B. Oh wait.

    What the hell?

    Anyway, it is a bit clownish to worry about this right now. Starting pitching is all that matters right now. There is nothing wrong with a Florimon-Dozier-Carroll MI situation next year. Willingham and Plouffe provide RH power, Doumit and Parmelee will supply some LH power, and Span, Revere, and Mauer are the table setters.
    Hey GM Shane!

    What did you get in trade for Morneau?

  5. #25
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    If Texas is ready to play Profar next year then they have a reasonably priced SS for the next 3 years who they can trade (Andrus). The Twins could be a good fit in 1 of 2 trade scenarios. 1. If the Rangers lose Hamilton this offseason they could trade Andrus for something like Span or Revere to take over CF and Andrus leadoff spot and the Twins could throw in Burton or a prospect to balance out the trade. (Hermann or Doumit could be a fit since Napoli is a FA. but I bet he resigns with Texas) Or since Cruz is a fa after next season we could trade Arcia or Hicks instead of Span for Andrus. There are several win/ win scenarios here and it should be looked into if Texas is open to moving one of those SS.

  6. #26
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greengoblinrulz View Post
    This shows that good teams have good shortstops & also bad teams have good shortstops (didnt say great)......MN has never even had a league average shortstop for almost a decade (since Guzzie left & that's the HIGH point of SS's the past 2 decades).
    Florimon is 26 already & has never even put up a solid minor league season. The Twins are playing him out of desparation OR are they trying to prove the scout who recommended him to MN correct ( is he the Gray/Nishi/Butera/etc scout??).
    Regardless of whether people like defensive metrics.....they arent skewed to go against Pedro only. His numbers are attrocious after his first 25 or so games.
    I don't think anyone is trying to say Florimon is without question the guy. The Twins are playing him because he MIGHT and I mean might... be the best current option. Proving a scout correct is a bad way to do business. Desperation? Not much to be desperate about right now... It's possible that... Ok... We've seen a little Dozier... We've seen Carroll... We've seen Casilla... Plouffe... Nishioka... Who's next? Florimon... Ok... Let's run him out there.

    Personally... I'm not comfortable with defensive metrics but Ok... Whatever they say... I imagine it says something... But... It's 25 games... That may be the more important metric in my opinion. Especially when considering defensive metrics. 25 games does not present reliable.

    League Average SS... Yeah we could improve that position... No one would complain if we did... SS can be put on the list of needs and rightfully so.

    I just don't buy the premise that a hitting SS correlates to a top two finish and Florimon has at least shown me some wizardry on defense. A defensive stud at the position will be more important to a building pitching staff than a SS less defensive with a higher OPS unless that OPS is really high and Tulo ain't coming to town.

    25 games is too soon pronounce him dead defensively based on UZR or errors for that matter.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    If Texas is ready to play Profar next year then they have a reasonably priced SS for the next 3 years who they can trade (Andrus). The Twins could be a good fit in 1 of 2 trade scenarios. 1. If the Rangers lose Hamilton this offseason they could trade Andrus for something like Span or Revere to take over CF and Andrus leadoff spot and the Twins could throw in Burton or a prospect to balance out the trade. (Hermann or Doumit could be a fit since Napoli is a FA. but I bet he resigns with Texas) Or since Cruz is a fa after next season we could trade Arcia or Hicks instead of Span for Andrus. There are several win/ win scenarios here and it should be looked into if Texas is open to moving one of those SS.
    Elvis can leave the building after 2014, so two reasonably priced years, not 3. Love to see it, but the price would likely be higher than you suggest. "Hamilton replaced by Span/Revere"? Won't the Rangers target Bourn as a priority FA replacement?

  8. #28
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Boom Boom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    However... When making a point like you are making about hitting Shortstops being the lifeblood of winning baseball teams... You also have to go to the other side. Tulo hits the snot out of the ball and the Rockies are in last place. Rutledge has been hitting very well in his absence. The Rockies ain't dancing. Aviles hits pretty well for a SS... The Red Sox aint dancing... Escobar has been fantastic for the Royals... Royals ain't making the playoffs this year. What about that Asdrubal guy in Northern Ohio. Jose Reyes in Miami... Damn fine hitter... Rollins in Philly... That Castro kid playing on the North Side of Chicago... Oh my God he is as good as they come at the plate. Now Lowrie has been hurt a bit but he's got a decent stroke for Houston. His Average needs to come up but he can find the Crawford Boxes.

    We may have to take a show of Twins Daily hands... But I'm willing to say that my list of Hitting Shortstops on the losing teams is stronger than your list of hitting Shortstops on Winning teams.
    Wow, it sounds to me like there's a lot more plus-offensive shortstops in the league than I thought. I'm sure that all those teams that have good hitting shortstops and aren't in contention have problems beyond that position.

    But when you list the good-hitting shortstops on the good teams, and then go on to list all the good-hitting shortstops on the bad teams, too... it makes me think that going with a Florimon at that position is putting the team at a disadvantage.

  9. #29
    A Plouffe-Florimon-Carrol-Dozier 2B-SS-3B infield is pretty mediocre defensively and not much to brag about offensively. Twins either have a weakness drafting talent or in developing and instructing defense in these positions.

  10. #30
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post

    Personally... I'm not comfortable with defensive metrics but Ok... Whatever they say... I imagine it says something... But... It's 25 games... That may be the more important metric in my opinion. Especially when considering defensive metrics. 25 games does not present reliable.

    League Average SS... Yeah we could improve that position... No one would complain if we did... SS can be put on the list of needs and rightfully so.

    I just don't buy the premise that a hitting SS correlates to a top two finish and Florimon has at least shown me some wizardry on defense. A defensive stud at the position will be more important to a building pitching staff than a SS less defensive with a higher OPS unless that OPS is really high and Tulo ain't coming to town.

    25 games is too soon pronounce him dead defensively based on UZR or errors for that matter.
    I'm an advocate of defensive metrics and even I would say that using them to determine a sample of 25 games is worse than useless. They can be terribly misleading over that SSS.

  11. #31
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    However... When making a point like you are making about hitting Shortstops being the lifeblood of winning baseball teams... You also have to go to the other side. Tulo hits the snot out of the ball and the Rockies are in last place. Rutledge has been hitting very well in his absence. The Rockies ain't dancing. Aviles hits pretty well for a SS... The Red Sox aint dancing... Escobar has been fantastic for the Royals... Royals ain't making the playoffs this year. What about that Asdrubal guy in Northern Ohio. Jose Reyes in Miami... Damn fine hitter... Rollins in Philly... That Castro kid playing on the North Side of Chicago... Oh my God he is as good as they come at the plate. Now Lowrie has been hurt a bit but he's got a decent stroke for Houston. His Average needs to come up but he can find the Crawford Boxes.

    We may have to take a show of Twins Daily hands... But I'm willing to say that my list of Hitting Shortstops on the losing teams is stronger than your list of hitting Shortstops on Winning teams.
    Wow, it sounds to me like there's a lot more plus-offensive shortstops in the league than I thought. I'm sure that all those teams that have good hitting shortstops and aren't in contention have problems beyond that position.

    But when you list the good-hitting shortstops on the good teams, and then go on to list all the good-hitting shortstops on the bad teams, too... it makes me think that going with a Florimon at that position is putting the team at a disadvantage.
    Yes... The Teams not in contention have problems beyond the SS Position... Just like the Twins...

    I don't know if Florimon is the guy... I won't claim it... Let's see what he does... He has moments where he looks like a defensive wizard and that encourages me but not enough to say case closed.

    My thoughts on the SS position for 2013 in the context of the current Twins... We need pitching and when putting arms out there and buidling our staff... We need to support that position and give it every chance to succeed and that means defense. Defense can stop the big inning from happening... Suspect Defense can prolong innings and cause big crooked numbers.

    ERA is effected by those occasional big innings more than anything else. A SS that can get to balls that others can't is a huge factor because they stop those big innings from happening. It's all about making outs.

    You saw what happened yesterday on the Florimon boot. 6 Runs in one inning for the White Sox. Yes I know it's odd that I would use a Florimon misplay in defense of Florimon defense.

    Off all the SS's I have seen this year for the Twins... Florimon gets to more balls and makes more plays. Of the options... He appears to be the guy who can best support a pitching staff and our pitching staff is going to need all the help it can get. I'm hoping the error on the routine ball will calm down. If it doesn't... The Twins will move on to the next option.

    If the SS position was all about hitting. Teams would just put there backup 3B at SS and let it roll. Defense supports pitching... Pitchers with a 5 plus ERA could have an ERA in the 4's... If the SS or OF would have simply gotten to a ball to stop a 4 5 or 6 run inning from happening.

  12. #32
    Senior Member Triple-A Thegrin's Avatar
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    This is what we have coming from New Britain (AA) and Fort Myers (A). Do they look like the next great hope for the Twins ?

    Player POS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG OPS E
    Estarlin De Los Santos SS 100 287 38 62 9 1 2 24 79 17 59 8 6 0.277 0.275 0.216 0.552 14
    James Beresford 2B 114 369 38 98 12 3 0 25 116 35 53 3 3 0.33 0.314 0.266 0.644 10
    Daniel Santana SS 121 507 70 145 21 9 8 60 208 29 77 17 11 0.329 0.41 0.286 0.739 26
    Levi Michael SS 117 431 58 106 14 4 2 38 134 56 82 6 0 0.339 0.311 0.246 0.65 16

  13. #33
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I'm an advocate of defensive metrics and even I would say that using them to determine a sample of 25 games is worse than useless. They can be terribly misleading over that SSS.
    About the equivalent of a week's worth of at-bats.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ballÖ and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by wavedog View Post
    A Plouffe-Florimon-Carrol-Dozier 2B-SS-3B infield is pretty mediocre defensively and not much to brag about offensively. Twins either have a weakness drafting talent or in developing and instructing defense in these positions.
    I am hopeful that either Dozier or Florimon will improve defensively and take the SS job this spring. Yes, the Twins seem to have a problem with middle IF and pitching development. Guys who sign originally in Middle IF (Cuddyer, Plouffe, Sano) seem to move to other positions if they develop, otherwise they become mediocre. Hopefully, this will change with either Florimon or Dozier, but odds are not better than 5050. Middle IF will help pitching--so maybe Twins should look for a trade (like Elvis or Kinsler from Texas).

  15. #35
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    With regard to Stephen Drew, from 2008 to 2010 he was a good hitter for his position, and every year other than this he has been significantly better than any other option the Twins have. And even in 2012 he has been better than some of them.

    With regard to Florimon, he seems to really get down on himself. This is the opposite of Casilla who doesn't appear to care. Florimon is a make-the-spectacular-plays-and-miss-the-routine-plays kind of shortstop and Jamey Carroll is the EXACT opposite. Pick your poison defensively. Carroll is creeping up offensively as well. Florimon has only 99 plate appearances with the Twins this year. Calm the hell down.

    With regard to Dozier, obviously he is a second baseman. That has been clear this year. It's a good thing the Twins called him up again to play there in September. Oh wait. Well, it's a good thing after his demotion to Rochester he played 2B. Oh wait.

    What the hell?

    Anyway, it is a bit clownish to worry about this right now. Starting pitching is all that matters right now. There is nothing wrong with a Florimon-Dozier-Carroll MI situation next year. Willingham and Plouffe provide RH power, Doumit and Parmelee will supply some LH power, and Span, Revere, and Mauer are the table setters.
    Hey GM Shane!

    What did you get in trade for Morneau?
    Depends on the team. Boston: a top 10 Boston pitching prospect (AA-AAA) and some position player . . .

  16. #36
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thegrin View Post
    This is what we have coming from New Britain (AA) and Fort Myers (A). Do they look like the next great hope for the Twins ?

    Player POS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG OPS E
    Estarlin De Los Santos SS 100 287 38 62 9 1 2 24 79 17 59 8 6 0.277 0.275 0.216 0.552 14
    James Beresford 2B 114 369 38 98 12 3 0 25 116 35 53 3 3 0.33 0.314 0.266 0.644 10
    Daniel Santana SS 121 507 70 145 21 9 8 60 208 29 77 17 11 0.329 0.41 0.286 0.739 26
    Levi Michael SS 117 431 58 106 14 4 2 38 134 56 82 6 0 0.339 0.311 0.246 0.65 16
    I would be pretty shocked if De Los Santos isn't released. He is completely terrible. I am not worried about Levi Michael for the time being. Beresford has a low ceiling. He's basically a better fielding Jamey Carroll. Danny Santana might be the best of the bunch and I am very curious to see what he does at AA next year.

  17. #37
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    In reality the Twins need to "weird science" these three and take Dozier's brain and bat, Florimon's range and arm, and Carroll's fundamentals and plate discipline and make one SS . . . model.

    Impossible? Well, just as likely as the Twins signing a FA SS or trading for one.

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