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Thread: Article: Pedro Florimon In Line To Be Opening Day Starter

  1. #21
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Florimon has not been very impressive defensively - the tools are there but the execution has not been.

    That said....on what is this insanity about Dozier not getting a fair shot based on? Hell, the guy basically had a scholarship for about a month and a half before he was finally demoted.

  2. #22
    Who else is excited for the worst hitting middle infield in the league next season?

  3. #23
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Florimon has not been very impressive defensively - the tools are there but the execution has not been.

    That said....on what is this insanity about Dozier not getting a fair shot based on? Hell, the guy basically had a scholarship for about a month and a half before he was finally demoted.
    Sometimes being forced to play over your head means not getting a fair shot. He was just in A and AA ball last year! He needed more time to get it together in Rochester. He should have gotten 250+ plate appearances before any promotion. Failing that, he certainly should have been sent back down much earlier in order to get back on track. And THEN he should have been playing 2B in Rochester, then called up and gotten time at 2B for the Twins.

  4. #24
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Question: does anyone else find Gardy's like of Jekyl and Hyde great/bad Florimon over the steady non-flashy consistency of Jamey Carroll a bit puzzling? What was the Castro/Bartlett nonsense about back in the day (I repressed that memory)?

  5. #25
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Question: does anyone else find Gardy's like of Jekyl and Hyde great/bad Florimon over the steady non-flashy consistency of Jamey Carroll a bit puzzling? What was the Castro/Bartlett nonsense about back in the day (I repressed that memory)?
    Castro VP > Carroll VP




    (VP = veteran presence)
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  6. #26

    So IOW, you want Nick Punto 2.0?

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    I think I'd rather have Jamey Carroll as the regular shortstop.
    Remember that if Carroll gets 401 PA's next season he has a PLAYER option for 2014 when he will be 40 years old. Would you still rather have Carroll?
    Yes. If I'm the Twins I'm not thinking about $2 million for Carroll in 2014, I'm trying to put my best players out there.

    I really don't want Carroll there either, but I'd rather give him 401 PAs next year than give Florimon 401 PAs, option or not.
    If Florimon gets 401 at bats next year... It will mean that he got better at some things and is doing a job. Therefore no problem... If he continues to struggle... He won't see 401 at bats in 2013.

    If Carroll gets 401 at bats next year... It will mean that Florimon and Escobar and Dozier or a new MI didnt get the job done and we needed Carroll to hold down the fort.

    Im hoping Carroll doesn't get 401 at bats for that reason.
    There you go. Are you confident that the Twins will have all of 2B, shortstop, and 3B locked down for an entire season next year? It hasn't happened recently. And look at the guys you named - I'd even add Plouffe to the list - how many do you think will be able to stick without needing to be replaced?

    Like I said before, it looks to me like Carroll will get enough PAs anyway.
    I am not confident at all. I think Plouffe is the guy at third and I dont believe the Twins will be looking for a 3B. The hot streak he had this year was stunning. Once you display a streak like that... the Twins would be foolish to not keep him in place in case he does it again. Go ahead and write Plouffes name down and etch it in stone.

    SS and 2B are huge question marks and so is the overall depth. The Twins have multiple holes to plug and itll be hard tp plug them all... I don't expect a big hitting SS or 2b to show up.

    Im not going to worry about .240 or .210 at the plate. The difference will mean very little. I'm gonna try and be reasonable and say simply... Give me someone who can gobble up the routine stuff and make the near impossible play every once in awhile. Florimon looks like he could be that guy but he has to nail down the routine stuff or he won't be given the chance to make the big play. He will lose the job to Escobar or Dozier or Carroll.

    Drew is not the answer. Please God no... Pitching is the priority so let's surround those pitchers with players who can get the ball up the middle. Florimon has done nothing to prove he is the long term answer so far... He's just shown flashes of ability that suggest he could be at the very least... A guy who will support the pitching and the pitching will need all the support it can get.

    Its all about opportunity and Florimon is getting his right now. It's up to him to grab it. He may not. Let's see... Too soon to say right now.
    I'm specifically replying to this quote: "Im not going to worry about .240 or .210 at the plate. The difference will mean very little. I'm gonna try and be reasonable and say simply... Give me someone who can gobble up the routine stuff and make the near impossible play every once in awhile."

    Did you just EXACTLY describe Nick Punto, who everyone wanted gone for years? He hit below Mendoza, handled the routine plays, and occasionally made the impossible. Those are some pretty low expectations for a new Twins starting SS, huh?

  7. #27
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    I know I'm looking forward to another season of a .600 OPS middle infield. Which, disgusting as it may sound, would be an improvement. They've only managed a .589 OPS this season.


    That's right, .589, in nearly 1,200 plate appearances. And yet there are people that don't think the middle infield requires attention?
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
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  8. #28
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    I know I'm looking forward to another season of a .600 OPS middle infield. Which, disgusting as it may sound, would be an improvement. They've only managed a .589 OPS this season.


    That's right, .589, in nearly 1,200 plate appearances. And yet there are people that don't think the middle infield requires attention?
    Improve by subtraction (Casilla) and improvement (Dozier, Florimon). Also, are you sure that number is correct? Carroll is at .637, Florimon .623, Dozier finished .603 . . . then Casilla .572 (Escobar, Hughes, and Nishioka are lower, but with very few PAs). Still bad, but not quite that bad.

  9. #29
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    I didn't do the math, just pulled up the BRef splits.

    I've still got hope for Dozier at 2nd given that Gardy has apparently written him off at short.

    Florimon is going to be 26 with a .670 minor league OPS, how much improvement is there to be had there? I'd be shocked if he can manage to do better than a low .600 OPS in his career.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
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  10. #30
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    I didn't do the math, just pulled up the BRef splits.

    I've still got hope for Dozier at 2nd given that Gardy has apparently written him off at short.

    Florimon is going to be 26 with a .670 minor league OPS, how much improvement is there to be had there? I'd be shocked if he can manage to do better than a low .600 OPS in his career.
    I like the idea of Dozier at 2B. Good thing they promoted him in September to do that . . .

    Florimon might be a .650 OPS guy, and I don't expect much more. Let's say that Florimon, Dozier, and Carroll collectively produce a .650 OPS next year. Is that good enough improvement? I just REALLY don't trust the Twins' evaluation of FA middle infielders, so I don't know what they are going to do other than hope for Danny Santana and Levi Michael to have breakout seasons at AA.

  11. #31
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Competent 39 year old utility player or fringe 26 year old utility player as your starting shortstop next season? That's a real nail-biter for a franchise that will be fighting to avoid 90 losses for a third consecutive season next year.

    It seems obvious that Florimon and Dozier or somebody else with even a faint whiff of potential should be starting in next year's middle infield. But maybe I'm missing something.

    Without disputing that Carroll would probably represent at least a small improvement over those two at short, let me ask the Carroll backers this.

    Why do you care?

    Is it that you believe the Twins will be a contender in 2013 despite being a 90+ loss team with the 3rd worst run differential in MLB, no impact prospects ready to contribute in the majors next season, and a GM who has vowed not to make virtually ANY significant changes in 2013?

    Or is it that you're reeeeeeally worried that they'll lose 90 again instead of just 88?
    Last edited by LaBombo; 09-18-2012 at 04:47 PM.

  12. #32
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Sometimes being forced to play over your head means not getting a fair shot. He was just in A and AA ball last year! He needed more time to get it together in Rochester. He should have gotten 250+ plate appearances before any promotion. Failing that, he certainly should have been sent back down much earlier in order to get back on track. And THEN he should have been playing 2B in Rochester, then called up and gotten time at 2B for the Twins.
    I wouldn't call that not getting a fair shot - I'd call that rushing him. Which I wouldn't disagree with. Hell, I think he got TOO MUCH of a shot.

  13. #33
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    Is it that you believe the Twins will be a contender in 2013 despite being a 90+ loss team with the 3rd worst run differential in MLB, no impact prospects ready to contribute in the majors next season, and a GM who has vowed not to make virtually ANY significant changes in 2013?
    While I understand your sentiment, the Twins aren't nearly that bad off. Parmelee is already in Minnesota. Gibson, Hicks, and Arcia will probably make appearances in 2013. And where has Ryan said he's not going to make changes?

  14. #34
    Senior Member Triple-A
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
    The shortstop carousel continues.

    This organization's inability to identify even serviceable options at one the most important positions on the field is mind-blowing.
    This goes back to the beginning of the draft. In their entire history, Dozier's 84 starts at short rank him as 3rd on the list of most starts for the Twins by a Twins' drafted shortstop - 1) Pat Meares 742 games; 2) Danny Thompson 630 games and Dozier's 84 - how embarassing. Most other drafted shortstops have switched positions (ie Knoblauch and Cuddyer), or been utility guys.

  15. #35
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Sometimes being forced to play over your head means not getting a fair shot. He was just in A and AA ball last year! He needed more time to get it together in Rochester. He should have gotten 250+ plate appearances before any promotion. Failing that, he certainly should have been sent back down much earlier in order to get back on track. And THEN he should have been playing 2B in Rochester, then called up and gotten time at 2B for the Twins.
    I wouldn't call that not getting a fair shot - I'd call that rushing him. Which I wouldn't disagree with. Hell, I think he got TOO MUCH of a shot.
    Well, OK. I don't think it is "fair" to throw someone in over his head and keep him over his head for a few months and then pass judgement without giving him a shot when the Rochester season is over (as a second baseman).

  16. #36
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    [/QUOTE]

    I'm specifically replying to this quote: "Im not going to worry about .240 or .210 at the plate. The difference will mean very little. I'm gonna try and be reasonable and say simply... Give me someone who can gobble up the routine stuff and make the near impossible play every once in awhile."

    Did you just EXACTLY describe Nick Punto, who everyone wanted gone for years? He hit below Mendoza, handled the routine plays, and occasionally made the impossible. Those are some pretty low expectations for a new Twins starting SS, huh?[/QUOTE]

    Ok... If the SS is Punto like... He's Punto like... But what I'm saying is... Good luck finding a SS who can hit in the off season... It maybe a case where SS Choice A hits .240 and SS choice B hits .210... .240 is better... I understand this... But... I'm not going to worry about an extra hit every 33 at bats from Player A... I'm not going to bring up OPS because Dozier seems like the only guy who can do the extra base thing... Kinda... And the FA choices are slim and underwhelming and will probably be competed for and therefore expensive.

    In lieu of a real honest to goodness hitting Shortstop... I'll start the .210 guy if he plays like Punto in the field. Because that guy will go a long way to Helping us... And I mean... Helping us build a pitching staff.

    We'd all love to be stacked like the Rangers... It isn't realistic right now. We are going to be a team with holes like almost every team in the league and I think you can survive the offensive SS hole we are almost sure to have... if... he can pick it and get it... in support of the pitching staff.

    Priorities... We need to improve our pitching. We won't be able to trade for Andrus... If we do... That means that we didn't trade the package Andrus would require for Pitching.

    I'm not condoning being sub par anywhere. I'm saying... Tulo ain't coming to town. Our pitching is more important and in even worse shape than MI... Fix the pitching as quickly as possible and a defensive SS will help the pitching fixing that is needed... By the time the Pitching is functional... Maybe a SS who can push the ball around the park and out of the park will be an option.

    Im not going to waste my time hoping, wishing or expecting a big hitter at the 6 position in 2013... I'm going to waste my time hoping and wishing for Pitching and the structure to help the pitching succeed.

  17. #37
    How will Carroll not get 400 PA next year if the Twins plan on moving on with Plouffe, Florimon, and possibly Dozier as the middle/LS infield? That is a lead pipe cinch unless he gets hurt.

    Dozier got a real fair shot and looked like the career minor leaguer he is destined to be. Plouffe is not the answer. He isn't any more accomplished than Dozier except he got hot for a month and hit some homers. Florimon is interesting. He looks to have the best package of skills in the organization. (of the players that are ML ready)

    I don't disagree with Florimon having the inside track at SS at this point, unless some other option drops into the team's lap this off season.
    Last edited by Wolfy; 09-19-2012 at 07:23 AM. Reason: spelling

  18. #38
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    I'm not convinced that having the meager yet steady 2014 Carroll for $2m is the worst thing in the world. He could be a steadying hand for a young infield.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    Competent 39 year old utility player or fringe 26 year old utility player as your starting shortstop next season? That's a real nail-biter for a franchise that will be fighting to avoid 90 losses for a third consecutive season next year.

    It seems obvious that Florimon and Dozier or somebody else with even a faint whiff of potential should be starting in next year's middle infield. But maybe I'm missing something.

    Without disputing that Carroll would probably represent at least a small improvement over those two at short, let me ask the Carroll backers this.

    Why do you care?

    Is it that you believe the Twins will be a contender in 2013 despite being a 90+ loss team with the 3rd worst run differential in MLB, no impact prospects ready to contribute in the majors next season, and a GM who has vowed not to make virtually ANY significant changes in 2013?

    Or is it that you're reeeeeeally worried that they'll lose 90 again instead of just 88?
    Unless Terry Ryan is playing poker when he said the solution to the lack of starting pitching is not to sign big free agents, then you are absolutely right. Use Carrol as the utility guy and find out if Escobar, Florimon, Plouffe, and Dozier can play.

  20. #40
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Boom Boom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    Competent 39 year old utility player or fringe 26 year old utility player as your starting shortstop next season? That's a real nail-biter for a franchise that will be fighting to avoid 90 losses for a third consecutive season next year.

    It seems obvious that Florimon and Dozier or somebody else with even a faint whiff of potential should be starting in next year's middle infield. But maybe I'm missing something.

    Without disputing that Carroll would probably represent at least a small improvement over those two at short, let me ask the Carroll backers this.

    Why do you care?

    Is it that you believe the Twins will be a contender in 2013 despite being a 90+ loss team with the 3rd worst run differential in MLB, no impact prospects ready to contribute in the majors next season, and a GM who has vowed not to make virtually ANY significant changes in 2013?

    Or is it that you're reeeeeeally worried that they'll lose 90 again instead of just 88?
    I'm going to assume you're referring to me since I was the one who first said I'd rather have Carroll at short than Florimon.

    For one thing, I'm not a Carroll backer. I don't like him as a starter. He's a capable backup. But I like 39-year old Carroll better than 26-year old Florimon.

    What I'd really like is for the Twins to find somebody outside their organization to play shortstop because I don't believe the Twins shortstop of the future is both a.) in the Twins system and b.) close enough to contribute in 2013.

    My point was I've already seen enough of Florimon to know he's not the guy.

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