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Thread: Article: Pedro Florimon In Line To Be Opening Day Starter

  1. #41
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    Is it that you believe the Twins will be a contender in 2013 despite being a 90+ loss team with the 3rd worst run differential in MLB, no impact prospects ready to contribute in the majors next season, and a GM who has vowed not to make virtually ANY significant changes in 2013?
    While I understand your sentiment, the Twins aren't nearly that bad off. Parmelee is already in Minnesota. Gibson, Hicks, and Arcia will probably make appearances in 2013. And where has Ryan said he's not going to make changes?
    Ryan has stated repeatedly that the Twins will not be major players in free agency, even going so far as to make the laughable, empirically false assertion that the 2013 free agent pitcher crop is "thin". And he's also insisted there will be no major turnover in off-field personnel. Sounds like no significant changes to me.

    And as I said, no prospects are ready to contribute. Whether Arcia or Hicks get a cup of September joe has nothing to do with helping the Twins win in 2013. Gibson may surprise, but he's been dreadful in his first two starts at AAA.

    Oh, almost forgot,

    Player A Age 23 A+/AA 610 PA's, .287/.366/.436
    Age 24 AAA 282 PA's, .338/.457/.645
    Age 24 MLB 175 PA's .239/.303/.396

    Player B Age 22 AA/AAA 559 PA's .284/.370/.448
    Age 23 AAA 174 PA's .385/.477/.629
    Age 24 MLB 143 PA's .260/.322/.374

    If you're expecting a big boost from a full season of Player A, Chris Parmalee, then have a big steamy helping of Player B, David McCarty. Yes, there are differences, and reasons to be optimistic about Parmalee in the long term, but a half season of unprecedented AAA hitting isn't one of them. In other words, I didn't forget to mention Parm as a prospect ready to make a major contribution in 2013. I just don't see it happening.

  2. #42
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    Ryan has stated repeatedly that the Twins will not be major players in free agency, even going so far as to make the laughable, empirically false assertion that the 2013 free agent pitcher crop is "thin". And he's also insisted there will be no major turnover in off-field personnel. Sounds like no significant changes to me.
    We have no idea what Ryan actually said in that interview. The only word in quotation was "thin", which was made in reference to elite pitching. To make any assertion about JR's beliefs requires several turns at the Jump To Conclusions mat.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    And as I said, no prospects are ready to contribute. Whether Arcia or Hicks get a cup of September joe has nothing to do with helping the Twins win in 2013. Gibson may surprise, but he's been dreadful in his first two starts at AAA.

    Oh, almost forgot,

    Player A Age 23 A+/AA 610 PA's, .287/.366/.436
    Age 24 AAA 282 PA's, .338/.457/.645
    Age 24 MLB 175 PA's .239/.303/.396

    Player B Age 22 AA/AAA 559 PA's .284/.370/.448
    Age 23 AAA 174 PA's .385/.477/.629
    Age 24 MLB 143 PA's .260/.322/.374

    If you're expecting a big boost from a full season of Player A, Chris Parmalee, then have a big steamy helping of Player B, David McCarty. Yes, there are differences, and reasons to be optimistic about Parmalee in the long term, but a half season of unprecedented AAA hitting isn't one of them. In other words, I didn't forget to mention Parm as a prospect ready to make a major contribution in 2013. I just don't see it happening.
    Gibson made two starts in AAA. Two. He jumped from GCL to Fort Myers to Rochester after only a handful of starts. I put absolutely zero stock in that performance, as he was still in the rehab stage. A full offseason and Spring Training will show what he's capable of doing, not ~10 rehab starts in the minors.

    Look at that first slash stat of McCarty's line. Yeah, that batting average of nearly .400 was sustainable, especially considering that it was a full .101 higher than anything he had previously posted during any significant stretch of MiLB hitting. He also did it over a measly 175 PAs in the hitter-happy-haven PCL (remember those days?). To top that off, McCarty went and posted six consecutive sub-.700 OPS seasons in the major leagues. Parmelee, on the other hand, posted a 1.100 OPS in September last year and is posting a .919 OPS this September. In the last 14 months, if Parmelee plays, he hits. That's all there is to it. Despite his inconsistent play and general jerking around by the front office and Gardy, he has still managed a career OPS over .800 in ~250 PAs. And while people tend to discount his MiLB numbers, they were remarkably solid. He posted an OPS of .800 or better in every season except two, his first full season in Beloit (which he followed with a .881 OPS the next season) and one in New Britain. He's been a very consistent hitter who never garnered much attention because of his lack of power (which is no longer a problem) and his position, first base.

    In short, the McCarty comp carries no weight.

    And there's no reason to think that neither Hicks nor Arcia will receive anything more than a September call-up in 2013. Both should start the season in AAA and if one of them is tearing the cover off the ball, we'll see him before the All-Star break.

  3. #43
    The King In The North All-Star Nick Nelson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Gibson made two starts in AAA. Two. He jumped from GCL to Fort Myers to Rochester after only a handful of starts. I put absolutely zero stock in that performance, as he was still in the rehab stage. A full offseason and Spring Training will show what he's capable of doing, not ~10 rehab starts in the minors.
    Not to mention he had a 10/1 K/BB ratio over 6.2 IP in those two Triple-A starts, which is... pretty good. Overall, Gibson put up a 4.13 ERA, 1.13 WHIP and 33/6 K/BB in 28 innings on his rehab stint. Not sure how that can be viewed as discouraging for a guy less than 12 months removed from TJ surgery.

  4. #44
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
    Not sure how that can be viewed as discouraging for a guy less than 12 months removed from TJ surgery.
    That he's pitching at all should be encouraging, much less the results. We just can't count on him for next year, but he's an intriguing "bonus" possibility.

  5. #45
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Gibson made two starts in AAA. Two. He jumped from GCL to Fort Myers to Rochester after only a handful of starts. I put absolutely zero stock in that performance, as he was still in the rehab stage. A full offseason and Spring Training will show what he's capable of doing, not ~10 rehab starts in the minors.
    Not to mention he had a 10/1 K/BB ratio over 6.2 IP in those two Triple-A starts, which is... pretty good. Overall, Gibson put up a 4.13 ERA, 1.13 WHIP and 33/6 K/BB in 28 innings on his rehab stint. Not sure how that can be viewed as discouraging for a guy less than 12 months removed from TJ surgery.
    Who said anything about Gibson's rehab being discouraging? I said three things about Gibson: two bad starts in AAA, could surprise people next year (the good kind), and as of right now, cannot be counted on to hold down a rotation spot (not 5th, though I didn't state that) on a Twins team that would hope to contend in 2013.

    I'm assuming that if you disagree with any of those points, it's the third. Gibson's progressed faster than I expected, but claiming certainty that he'll be a key contributor to a contending 2013 Twins team is beyond absurd in my opinion.

  6. #46
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    I took it the same way they did. You stated that he was "dreadful" in AAA as though those two starts possessed any meaningful significance.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  7. #47
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    I'm assuming that if you disagree with any of those points, it's the third. Gibson's progressed faster than I expected, but claiming certainty that he'll be a key contributor to a contending 2013 Twins team is beyond absurd in my opinion.
    But that's not the argument, is it? You claimed "no impact prospects ready to contribute". By that reasoning, it's impossible for any prospect "to be ready to contribute" until they've actually done so.

    Gibson should be ready to contribute by the All-Star break if his rehab goes as expected. Parmelee is already contributing. Arcia and Hicks have a good shot at contributing. No one is claiming certainty about anything, we're simply refuting your statement that "no impact prospects are ready to contribute in the majors next season". There are several who should contribute at some point in the season.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Triple-A Thegrin's Avatar
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    After tonight's game, I am done with Florimon. If we have him as SS next year, the pitchers will be afraid that the ball will be hit at Florimon. The perfect IF = Florimon SS. Nishioka 2B. makes me want to vomit at the thought.

  9. #49
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    I took it the same way they did. You stated that he was "dreadful" in AAA as though those two starts possessed any meaningful significance.
    Then you missed the point the same way they did. Guess I'm not doing very well at getting that point across.

    If you think Gibson's shown as of today that he's ready to hold down a rotation spot on a contender, I disagree. Otherwise, your post makes absolutely no sense in the context of what I've been saying. My points were, going back to my first in this thread, that A) the Twins will not be contenders next year. B) Therefore, it couldn't hurt to see if Florimon can contribute (I'm thinking utility at best) by playing him ahead of Carroll, who will be 40 when I think the Twins might be relevant again. Which of those two points do you disagree with?

    If you disagree with my reasons why the Twins won't contend, that's fine. But at no point have I ever opined that any of the players in question would not play for, or even contribute to, the Twins in 2013. I just said that I don't think that anyone is ready now to contribute to a contender. Brock agrees with me about everyone about Parmelee, and he's probably wrong about him, unfortunately.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    Is it that you believe the Twins will be a contender in 2013 despite being a 90+ loss team with the 3rd worst run differential in MLB, no impact prospects ready to contribute in the majors next season, and a GM who has vowed not to make virtually ANY significant changes in 2013?
    While I understand your sentiment, the Twins aren't nearly that bad off. Parmelee is already in Minnesota. Gibson, Hicks, and Arcia will probably make appearances in 2013. And where has Ryan said he's not going to make changes?
    Ryan has stated that the Twins will [explore every avenue of improving the team, including] free agency... Sounds like [he's willing to make] changes to me.
    Accurated up your post with the bold in brackets.

  11. #51
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    With thirteen more games to go the Twins will have a better idea of what Floriman can can do. The stats guys here will tell you about his fielding at the end of the season. 13 games will give you a hint on offense what he can do. I would bet by seasons end he will prove himself to be a backup. Shortstop for the Twins is like being a drummer for Spinal Tap.

  12. #52
    Senior Member All-Star
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    Ryan has stated repeatedly that the Twins will not be major players in free agency, even going so far as to make the laughable, empirically false assertion that the 2013 free agent pitcher crop is "thin". And he's also insisted there will be no major turnover in off-field personnel. Sounds like no significant changes to me.
    We have no idea what Ryan actually said in that interview. The only word in quotation was "thin", which was made in reference to elite pitching. To make any assertion about JR's beliefs requires several turns at the Jump To Conclusions mat.
    Thanks for carrying that torch RP!!

  13. #53
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxtung View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    Ryan has stated repeatedly that the Twins will not be major players in free agency, even going so far as to make the laughable, empirically false assertion that the 2013 free agent pitcher crop is "thin". And he's also insisted there will be no major turnover in off-field personnel. Sounds like no significant changes to me.
    We have no idea what Ryan actually said in that interview. The only word in quotation was "thin", which was made in reference to elite pitching. To make any assertion about JR's beliefs requires several turns at the Jump To Conclusions mat.
    Thanks for carrying that torch RP!!
    Heh, no problem. I really didn't like the quote and what it meant on the surface but given the context, there's little to be gathered from the vague way it was referenced in the article. We should all hope that it was terribly misleading.

  14. #54
    That was a pretty rough game for Florsy. He can't have a whole lot more of those otherwise he's going to have an empty bandwagon.

  15. #55
    Senior Member Triple-A Dilligaf69's Avatar
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    So barring any trades for an upgrade to our "middling" infield it could be Pedro at SS and Dozier at 2B where he'll most certainly be better defensively...assuming of course he gets time there in winter ball and in ST. Would that decision affect the Twins decision to try and trade Morneau..which btw I don't think is happening, but my point being with two relatively light hitting IF at SS and 2B and Plouffes inconsistecy can they afford to trade Justin??? You don't know what Parm is gonna do over a full season and they can't really afford sub par production at all 4 infield spots. So IMO you keep Justin, trade Span put Parm in RF and Revere in CF which is the likely scenario.

  16. #56
    Senior Member Triple-A Dilligaf69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    I'm assuming that if you disagree with any of those points, it's the third. Gibson's progressed faster than I expected, but claiming certainty that he'll be a key contributor to a contending 2013 Twins team is beyond absurd in my opinion.
    But that's not the argument, is it? You claimed "no impact prospects ready to contribute". By that reasoning, it's impossible for any prospect "to be ready to contribute" until they've actually done so.

    Gibson should be ready to contribute by the All-Star break if his rehab goes as expected. Parmelee is already contributing. Arcia and Hicks have a good shot at contributing. No one is claiming certainty about anything, we're simply refuting your statement that "no impact prospects are ready to contribute in the majors next season". There are several who should contribute at some point in the season.

    I'd be suprised if he's not pitching with the big club by early June at the latest.

  17. #57
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dilligaf69 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LaBombo View Post
    I'm assuming that if you disagree with any of those points, it's the third. Gibson's progressed faster than I expected, but claiming certainty that he'll be a key contributor to a contending 2013 Twins team is beyond absurd in my opinion.
    But that's not the argument, is it? You claimed "no impact prospects ready to contribute". By that reasoning, it's impossible for any prospect "to be ready to contribute" until they've actually done so.

    Gibson should be ready to contribute by the All-Star break if his rehab goes as expected. Parmelee is already contributing. Arcia and Hicks have a good shot at contributing. No one is claiming certainty about anything, we're simply refuting your statement that "no impact prospects are ready to contribute in the majors next season". There are several who should contribute at some point in the season.

    I'd be suprised if he's not pitching with the big club by early June at the latest.
    So would I. But he's pitched a grand total of 275 innings of professional baseball, most of it below AAA, and is early in the rehab process. Beauchamp offered Gibson as an example of a guy who can be counted on now to be ready to help the Twins contend on opening day. I see little evidence of that.

    Gibson may actually make the team with a strong spring based on need alone, unless the FO decides he starts in AAA no matter what. But the idea that the Twins would view themselves as contenders while simultaneously counting on Gibson, as of today, to hold down a rotation spot from day one is a big stretch. They'd be setting themselves up for another April apocalypse, especially if they fill other rotation spots with potential arsonists like Sam Deduno and his 1/1 K/BB ratio and 5.16 FIP.

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