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Thread: Article: Span's Last Hurrah?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer 70charger's Avatar
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    These types of threads tend to devolve into trade him vs. don't trade him, but there's so much assumed that there really isn't any information there. I bet that even the hard core don't trade him types would swap him straight up for Verlander. Right?

    My position is that we should be fielding offers, asking for good pitchers, and just seeing what happens. If nothing worthwhile is on offer, keep him. (And I say that even though I think we could very well get some pretty good pitching in return.) We have to be agnostic about whether he gets traded, because we don't know what's out there. Generally we know what we need, but whether it's available - that's a different story.

  2. #22
    Super Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Another thread of do not trade him, he is good......how do you expect this team to get better if it will not trade good players?
    The key is not simply to trade good players - that can result in a zero-sum (or worse) game that fixes a weakness by creating another one. Instead, you trade where there is oversupply at one position to address a weakness at another. The classic was trading AJ when Mauer was ready, resulting in some good talent coming back and no loss at all in the catcher's slot. Trading Span looks like a similar case, with minimal dropoff, and for that reason I support a favorable trade involving Span, but not simply trading him because he's good.

  3. #23
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    Span has to be moved at some point, why not do it while his value is high and the team isn't contending.

    Besides, trading him will likely improve the outfield defense shortly. Granted, while Parmelee fills in until Hicks is ready it will be weaker, but adding Hicks will make the outfield better. Currently neither Span or Willingham are willing to budge from their postions, which is forcing the Twins to push Revere out of postion to RF.

    Seeing as Span is hurting the team by not playing RF now, does anyone really think Span and/or Gardenhire is going to be interested in a position change to enable Hicks' best talents later? or Buxton or Kepler or Benson? Not only do the Twins have a ton of OF talent, most of them are CF and by the time they are ready, it's possible all of them would be an upgrade over Span who seems reluctant to cede the position. He's got to go sometime, might as well do it in a rebuilding year.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Double-A COtwin's Avatar
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    I think that this is the time to trade Span. Like so many others have said, we have young players to plug in and eventually our defense will even see an upgrade because of the move. However I think it is unfair to Span to blame him for not shifting around the outfield. Does he want to move away from Center, probably not. Is that his call to make, probably not. But more important than either is that his trade value is much higher as a quality Centerfielder than as a great defensive corner outfielder. We are trying to get people to buy high on him, that means advertising him at a higher value position.

  5. #25
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    ?

    Quote Originally Posted by 70charger View Post
    These types of threads tend to devolve into trade him vs. don't trade him, but there's so much assumed that there really isn't any information there. I bet that even the hard core don't trade him types would swap him straight up for Verlander. Right?

    My position is that we should be fielding offers, asking for good pitchers, and just seeing what happens. If nothing worthwhile is on offer, keep him. (And I say that even though I think we could very well get some pretty good pitching in return.) We have to be agnostic about whether he gets traded, because we don't know what's out there. Generally we know what we need, but whether it's available - that's a different story.
    Sorry, but the Span for Verlander scenario is inane and pointless. To the point - no team would be foolish enough to offer a good pitcher for Span. It'll be a Matt Capps for Ramos bonanza redux. Is J.C. Romero still in the league? That's the kind of offer they'll get. See if you can luck out and get somebody potentially good for Parmalee. Maybe shop Willingham as terrific as he's been this year. But, there'll be no decent offers for Morneau and certainly none for Span.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer 70charger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecore View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 70charger View Post
    These types of threads tend to devolve into trade him vs. don't trade him, but there's so much assumed that there really isn't any information there. I bet that even the hard core don't trade him types would swap him straight up for Verlander. Right?

    My position is that we should be fielding offers, asking for good pitchers, and just seeing what happens. If nothing worthwhile is on offer, keep him. (And I say that even though I think we could very well get some pretty good pitching in return.) We have to be agnostic about whether he gets traded, because we don't know what's out there. Generally we know what we need, but whether it's available - that's a different story.
    Sorry, but the Span for Verlander scenario is inane and pointless. To the point - no team would be foolish enough to offer a good pitcher for Span. It'll be a Matt Capps for Ramos bonanza redux. Is J.C. Romero still in the league? That's the kind of offer they'll get. See if you can luck out and get somebody potentially good for Parmalee. Maybe shop Willingham as terrific as he's been this year. But, there'll be no decent offers for Morneau and certainly none for Span.
    Span for Verlander was an extraordinary hypothetical. Of course it's not going to happen; it was supposed to illustrate a point.

    As to your point, why not tell us why you think Span is so valueless? He's relatively cheap, he's under team control, he's an above-average defender, and he's a leadoff hitter. You really think that's worth nothing better than a Matt Capps type? Why?

  7. #27
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecore View Post
    Sorry, but the Span for Verlander scenario is inane and pointless. To the point - no team would be foolish enough to offer a good pitcher for Span. It'll be a Matt Capps for Ramos bonanza redux. Is J.C. Romero still in the league? That's the kind of offer they'll get. See if you can luck out and get somebody potentially good for Parmalee. Maybe shop Willingham as terrific as he's been this year. But, there'll be no decent offers for Morneau and certainly none for Span.
    Span is considerably more valuable than you seem to believe. Above average up-the-middle guys don't grow on trees. Cost-controlled guys still in their primes are even more rare. If the Twins were looking for an infielder instead of a pitcher, Span probably would have been gone at the deadline. The trick is finding a team that has a surplus of starting pitching and a lack of outfielders. That's the difficult part. Finding value for Span shouldn't be hard in itself... Finding value you need is the hard part.

  8. #28
    The King In The North All-Star Nick Nelson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    The trick is finding a team that has a surplus of starting pitching and a lack of outfielders. That's the difficult part.
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TBR/2012.shtml

  9. #29
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    The trick is finding a team that has a surplus of starting pitching and a lack of outfielders. That's the difficult part.
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TBR/2012.shtml
    Well, it appears that financially it would work for Tampa as well (not to mention that it is Denard's hometown).

    Span's $4.75 million in 2013 and $6.5 million in 2014 compares favorably to the $7 million they paid Upton in 2012 and the $6 million option ($1 million buyout) that Scott is signed for in 2013.

    It helps that the $9 million for Span in 2015 is a club option with only a .5 million buyout

  10. #30
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    The trick is finding a team that has a surplus of starting pitching and a lack of outfielders. That's the difficult part.
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TBR/2012.shtml
    Tampa is a great match for several reasons. I'd love to see it happen.

  11. #31
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    I'd also like to toss this one back in the ring:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/te...=CIN&year=2012

    A .249 OBP for a playoff team's leadoff hitters and .284 OBP for their CF's are going to have to be addressed for an up and coming team who's sites are set on being an annual contender. Either the Twins or the Reds may come to see that the other's offer didn't look half bad after all once the off-season begins.

  12. #32
    Senior Member Double-A Lesser Dali's Avatar
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    I could not guess what the Rays would be willing to give up, but I think Span would do well playing at Tropicana Field. Fake turf, a controlled environment. I would guess his average would increase along with his power numbers. Also we might actually see a 30 stolen base season out of him because of Maddon's style of play. What would be the return? Cobb or Archer? That seems like a stretch, but maybe grabbing one of those guys is within the realm of possibility. Anyone?

  13. #33
    The King In The North All-Star Nick Nelson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zodiac View Post
    I could not guess what the Rays would be willing to give up, but I think Span would do well playing at Tropicana Field. Fake turf, a controlled environment. I would guess his average would increase along with his power numbers. Also we might actually see a 30 stolen base season out of him because of Maddon's style of play. What would be the return? Cobb or Archer? That seems like a stretch, but maybe grabbing one of those guys is within the realm of possibility. Anyone?
    I would guess that the Rays will be looking to move James Shields and his $9M salary this offseason. I'm sure they wouldn't be willing to trade him straight-up for Span but if you add in a little something else to spice up the package, maybe it happens.

  14. #34
    Senior Member Double-A Lesser Dali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zodiac View Post
    I could not guess what the Rays would be willing to give up, but I think Span would do well playing at Tropicana Field. Fake turf, a controlled environment. I would guess his average would increase along with his power numbers. Also we might actually see a 30 stolen base season out of him because of Maddon's style of play. What would be the return? Cobb or Archer? That seems like a stretch, but maybe grabbing one of those guys is within the realm of possibility. Anyone?
    I would guess that the Rays will be looking to move James Shields and his $9M salary this offseason. I'm sure they wouldn't be willing to trade him straight-up for Span but if you add in a little something else to spice up the package, maybe it happens.
    James Shields is a nice pitcher, but isn't he a Free Agent after the 2013 season? Would that really make sense to trade Span and a few others for one year of Shields? The Twins would really have to be confident they could seriously make a run at the whole Sha-Bang if they make that kind of move. I am sceptical about this concept, but I do appreciate you throwing something my way. I am assuming that you think that Archer or Cobb could not be had in a Span trade.

  15. #35
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
    I would guess that the Rays will be looking to move James Shields and his $9M salary this offseason. I'm sure they wouldn't be willing to trade him straight-up for Span but if you add in a little something else to spice up the package, maybe it happens.
    If they asked for more than Span, I'd politely tell them to piss off. Shields is under control for two years at a combined $21m. Span is under control for three years at a combined $20m. Shields is a good pitcher but he hasn't been lighting the world on fire this season. Shields is also two years older than Denard.

    If Tampa wanted something along the lines of a low upside PTBNL as organizational filler, sure, I'd do that deal. But if they want a player of any significance to the organization, I'd go elsewhere and look for someone with a lower price tag and more team control, even if it meant diving into the low minors and finding a guy who won't help until 2015.

  16. #36
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer jimbo92107's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    It's good to form attachments with players -- but you also have to let them go sometimes.
    Yes, it's good to cheer for your favorite players. Just don't buy a jersey with a name on it. ;-)

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by 70charger View Post
    These types of threads tend to devolve into trade him vs. don't trade him, but there's so much assumed that there really isn't any information there. I bet that even the hard core don't trade him types would swap him straight up for Verlander. Right?

    My position is that we should be fielding offers, asking for good pitchers, and just seeing what happens. If nothing worthwhile is on offer, keep him. (And I say that even though I think we could very well get some pretty good pitching in return.) We have to be agnostic about whether he gets traded, because we don't know what's out there. Generally we know what we need, but whether it's available - that's a different story.
    The Twins might be gun shy regarding a trade involving Span. IMO they just wouldn't get back in pitching what Span can give you night in and night out. But who knows?

  18. #38
    Senior Member Triple-A
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    I think you have to look at moving Morneau and Span. The dropoffs from both to Revere and Parmelee would definitely be noticed. Morneau has been raking in the 2nd half and Span, whether you love him or hate him, is a very good leadoff hitter. Defensively, Revere is better than Span, but offensively there is a dramatic decline. The Twins have few positions of strength and 1B (because any good bat can be plugged in there) and OF. Our weaknesses (SS, 2B and SP) are REALLY weak throughout the organization.Trading Span for an elite middle infielder such as the 2B in the Reds system was talked about at the deadline. If the Reds fall apart in the playoffs due to continued poor leadoff hitting/table-setting for Bruce, Votto and Phillips the Reds may be willing to do that.

    Morneau HAS value, because he is showing that he is healthy and when healthy he can hit. All it takes is one GM to take a chance on Morneau. You have to admit that with the way Morneau has been hitting, it will be attractive to teams looking for an impact bat this off-season.

    Whether we trade it for pitching or middle infield help doesn't matter to me. The Twins need GOOD players everywhere and trading players when their values are highest is the best way to build in both the short and long term.

    The pitching depth in free agency is much better than any middle infield FA we could sign. Best player available (excluding OF's) for Span and Morneau. Our weaknesses are REALLY weak. They have to be addressed.

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