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Thread: Liriano

  1. #41
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack View Post
    I get the the "well, if we can get him cheap, he's worth a gamble" argument. But he's not going to come cheap. There will be some idiot that overpays for him. There always is with guys like this.
    Yeah I hear ya, I just can't see anyone giving him a multi year deal (maybe an NL team if they are desperate?) I mean there will be a lot of interest but would be shocked if he gets 6+ million

  2. #42
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinsnorth49 View Post
    Potentially signing Liriano is now considered moving forward? What is the upside to this again? The snowball's chance in hell he even comes close to what he did in pre-injury '06?
    Signing a guy like Liriano instead of the next Jason Marquis, Ortiz, Hernandez etc is moving forward.

  3. #43
    Senior Member All-Star Badsmerf's Avatar
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    Yes. He is the type of low-risk/high-reward guy the Twins should be targeting. Regardless of his past on this team, he is an MLB pitcher and should be considered the same as anyone else. I don't know how the parting of ways was, but they should try to sign him.
    Do or do not. There is no try.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Triple-A Thegrin's Avatar
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    We can pray that the Yanks will sign him to a 3 to 4 year deal. ROFL

  5. #45
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Twins Twerp's Avatar
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    4-5 mil would be worth it. We know what we are getting. I don't see the harm. If we sign him to be a bottom of the rotation guy, he is better than Duduno and De Vries. If we can sign a couple of top end guys (Jackson, Marcum, etc.) then a deal for Liriano makes sense. If anyone else shows him interest and drives his value over 5 million, then no freakin' way. But I like the thought of a minor league deal, and I am guessing he would rather come to a place he knows. He is, as you may remember, a bi-polar headcase.

  6. #46
    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    This ain't happening. The Twins (rightfully so, I think) don't value him as highly as many on this board seem to, or else they wouldn't have traded him for a couple of spare parts (and they were lucky to get that). For that matter, the rest of the league doesn't value him that highly either (or again, we wouldn't have had to trade him for spare parts). There was no interest on the Twins part to negotiate a new contract with him while he was here, and I can't believe there will be any to resign him now.

    He has great stuff. He's inconsistent and unreliable. His ERA post-injury is around 4.75. Let's move on.

  7. #47
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Are the people saying "just 4 or 5 million is fine" in the same group that gets irritated when we piddle away 12-15M on a handful of the 4-5M guys? Just last year the cash we spent on Capps, Marquis, and Jamey Carroll was a 10M player. Do we really want to mismash another 10-15 on three subpar players rather than pooling and splashing? I know for a fact a few of the people wanting to gamble on a guy who has established himself as one of the worst starters in the AL are also guys that complain about wasting money in "reasonable" contracts that add up to real money.

    Liriano isn't very good and his numbers last year show it.

  8. #48
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Are the people saying "just 4 or 5 million is fine" in the same group that gets irritated when we piddle away 12-15M on a handful of the 4-5M guys? Just last year the cash we spent on Capps, Marquis, and Jamey Carroll was a 10M player. Do we really want to mismash another 10-15 on three subpar players rather than pooling and splashing? I know for a fact a few of the people wanting to gamble on a guy who has established himself as one of the worst starters in the AL are also guys that complain about wasting money in "reasonable" contracts that add up to real money.

    Liriano isn't very good and his numbers last year show it.
    The Twins need four starters.

    Repeat. The Twins need four starters.

    At least two of those guys are going to have to be signed cheaply. If you need someone on the cheap, would you prefer another Pitcherpotamus, another Marquis, or a guy that has some upside?

    I'm not a Liriano fan but if you want this team to win in 2013 and can pick up Francisco for $3-4m on a one year deal, you have to make that move. Lots of upside, very little risk.

  9. #49
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Repeat. The Twins need four starters.
    If you believe we need four starters from outside the organization than A) we don't have enough money for that and B) Liriano still sucks and doesn't solve that need. What we don't need is live bodies - we need good arms. Liriano has repeatedly proven he is not that. If he gets signed, I'm guessing it's as a bullpen arm.

    I'm firmly against the idea of investing money into short-term solutions for next year given the number of problems this team faces. If you're going to sink money into the pitching staff - sink into players that can be here for 3-4 years.

  10. #50
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Sheesh. If there's anything Liriano HAS proven, it's that he's not just a "live body." Rather, he's the definition of "good arm." Jason Marques is a "warm body." Cole Devries is a warm body. Liriano isn't.

    Whether or not Liriano can harness that good arm is another issue, of course. Many believe he never will.

    But just another nothing, with no real chance of being well above average? No. That's a ridiculous take.

  11. #51
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    There are plenty of pitchers with "stuff" that have never been anything. Liriano has failed over and over and over again. At some point "stuff" isn't enough - especially when you have been one of the worst pitchers in the AL for three of the last four years.

  12. #52
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Repeat. The Twins need four starters.
    If you believe we need four starters from outside the organization than A) we don't have enough money for that and B) Liriano still sucks and doesn't solve that need. What we don't need is live bodies - we need good arms. Liriano has repeatedly proven he is not that. If he gets signed, I'm guessing it's as a bullpen arm.

    I'm firmly against the idea of investing money into short-term solutions for next year given the number of problems this team faces. If you're going to sink money into the pitching staff - sink into players that can be here for 3-4 years.
    I agree that the Twins' first target should be a long-term arm.

    That doesn't change the fact that they will still need other arms to fill out the rotation. If you're going to spend money on a guy to eat innings, there is no reason to not go with the guy with upside. If you don't think the Twins should sign a Liriano-type to round out the rotation, what do you suggest they do?

  13. #53
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    If you don't think the Twins should sign a Liriano-type to round out the rotation, what do you suggest they do?
    Throw our own batch of bad arms out there that don't cost us 3-5 million. Hendricks, DeVries, a worthwhile FA, Diamond, Gibson, Deduno, etc. If you're going to willingly put bad pitchers in your rotation, why pay them a lot?

  14. #54
    Don't complain about what we got from the White Sox. Got two players that will contribute something. Liriano was a dead arm.

    If the Twins (or the White Sox) wished to keep Liriano, they would be on the hook for much more than he is currently worth.

    The only factor in considering Liriano is that he HAS to pitch well next season if he wants to make big money or get a long-term contract. He HAS to pitch the best he ever has.

    The upside is that he may come cheap, and of he shines, you can flip him for a couple of players. If he pitches okay, you can still flip him, possibly, for a couple of players.

    Man, I could see the Astros signing Clemens, getting a bunch of wanna-bees (Liriano and Young, for example), selling some season tickets, and still flipping guys for more promise and hope.
    Joel Thingvall
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  15. #55
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    If you don't think the Twins should sign a Liriano-type to round out the rotation, what do you suggest they do?
    Throw our own batch of bad arms out there that don't cost us 3-5 million. Hendricks, DeVries, a worthwhile FA, Diamond, Gibson, Deduno, etc. If you're going to willingly put bad pitchers in your rotation, why pay them a lot?
    And I'm not against that move... If the Twins can pick up two legitimate starters. I'd go for a Sanchez/Jackson/Marcum type for 3 years and then sign Baker (pending physical and rehab status, that is). If you are confident that Baker can perform, snatch him up and fill in two rotation spots with filler until Gibson is ready (which he shouldn't be in April... If you start him out of ST, then you just have to bench him in August anyway... Better to do it the other way around).

    But if Baker isn't ready or if another team picks him up, you can't expect the Twins to fill in three rotation spots with junk arms. That's a great way to start another season at 10-25 and be out of it by May 15th. In that situation, I'm not against picking up Liriano if he can be had for $3-4m. There simply aren't better options than him out there with the kind of upside he brings to the table. Just 24 months ago, the guy was getting Cy Young votes and it's not as if he suffered a major injury. He still has that kind of talent, though he's unlikely to pitch at quite that high a level again.

    It's a bad situation to be in but advocating that the Twins throw out Deduno/De Vries/Walters/etc. is writing off the season before it even starts. There is absolutely no way the Twins will compete with three of those guys in the rotation.

  16. #56
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Counting on DeDuno/DeVries/Walters to even give you "one arm" in the rotation for the whole season is a mistake, counting on them for 2 or 3 of those pitching spots is a recipe for disaster.

    I like Baker, but will he even be 100% come beginning of next season? FWIW I hope they resign him as I think he could be huge in a contract/make or break year.

  17. #57
    Oh Francisco, how I wanted you to be our go-to pitcher!
    Oh Francisco, how deep the gash you left with your repeated failures!

    Any success the Twins have in '13 will have to include some bargain-midlevel free agent pick-ups outperforming a contract (ala Willingham '12.) Liriano at a low cost seems a good bet, but you can only flip a coin a have it land tails so many times before you pick a new coin.

    Therefore...
    ...Ervin Santana!
    Yeah, I'm dreaming. He won't be as cheap as Liriano, but a guy can hope against hope every once in a while.

  18. #58
    How many years after the great season (2006) have to pass before people stop thinking that Liriano can replicate that success? Six? Eight?
    His best days are gone. No reason to think that he can get that form back.
    As for incentives? If he couldn’t get it together last year, in a contract year, why would one think he would respond to incentives?
    I wish him well. But he needs to be someone else’s headache.

  19. #59
    Senior Member All-Star Winston Smith's Avatar
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    I'll ask again how is Baker going to be ready before Gibson when he had his surgery 9 months later?
    This comment brought to you from the Rosedale Mall studio by Hamm's Beer, brewed in the land of sky blue waters.

  20. #60
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    I'll ask again how is Baker going to be ready before Gibson when he had his surgery 9 months later?
    31 years old versus 25. With Baker, there's little concern for babying his arm and bringing him back slowly. He may be ineffective but he'll probably be ready shortly after the season begins. He's already throwing on flat ground, IIRC.

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