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Thread: Twins will seek 'affordable pitchers'

  1. #21
    Until Ryan signs a FA pitcher to a 2yr deal..or more..he's never done it.
    Prove us cynics wrong...Id love to eat crow on this but time will tell

  2. #22
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    But his budget is not twice as big, more than 40 million is in three players. That leaves only 50 million for the rest of the team. That us the great fallacy in comparing payroll with Oakland, for instance. Also, unlike Oakland, he seems unwilling to sell high on veterans right now. I do not understand the strategy. BTW, I hope you are right and I am wrong.

  3. #23
    Senior Member All-Star Boom Boom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Jason Marquis...... Which 2 above average starting pitchers will come here for as little money as Willingham made?
    They probably won't. Ryan got a good deal on Willingham. Why are you so adamant that he won't pay market value for a pitcher as he did for Willingham, Doumit, and Carroll last season? Add $6m over three years to Willingham's deal and you're suddenly in the market for a mid-range pitcher (aka. roughly the money Pavano made last season). Ryan showed that he's willing to go after a guy if he thinks the team will get value from the player. He did it last season and there's no reason to think he won't do it again because he has more money this offseason... well, he should have more, anyway.

    The only basis you have to assume that Ryan will only pursue $3m pitchers is that he often did so when the Twins' payroll was half what it is today. It's not solid ground on which to stand, as the circumstances are vastly different today than they were in 2004.
    He's got to do better than Marquis. I think most Twins fans realized the rotation would be a weakness, and Ryan took the same approach to improving it as he did when the Twins were in the Dome - find a cheap, older veteran on a 1-year deal.

  4. #24
    I think there's truth in all that everyone here is saying: What he should do is get a couple of mid-priced free agent starters (Marcum, Blanton) and leave a little money for additional acquisitions. What he will do is wait for the free agent market to set rates for the top-line starters and then wait to see who is left out, and then pick up one or two of those guys for 1-year, or 1-year-plus-option deals, making sound dollar decisions.

    He will do this between mid-December and late January, because he doesn't want to wait until spring and have some teams lose a valuable piece (thereby raising the price of the remaining FA starters again). He wants those guys to think they'll be left in the cold and then start the negotiations.

    He should look to trade one of the assets (Morneau, Span, minor league outfielder) for additional help, if the market doesn't bring us a couple of starters and the shot at a middle infielder. What he will do is save those tradeable assets and a little room in the budget and treat fans as the team always has - if you show up and if we're playing well, we'll spend a little more money or make a trade to improve the team. If the fans don't show up and we're not playing well, we'll sell off what we can for less than they are worth and try the same formula again next year.
    Last edited by tmerrickkeller; 10-15-2012 at 01:18 PM. Reason: wrong word

  5. #25
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    He's got to do better than Marquis. I think most Twins fans realized the rotation would be a weakness, and Ryan took the same approach to improving it as he did when the Twins were in the Dome - find a cheap, older veteran on a 1-year deal.
    He only took the "old" approach after he had spent most of his money on Willingham and Doumit. I wasn't a fan of the Marquis signing but it's not as if he had a ton of money left over to go get a decent pitcher after spending $10m on those two players. This season should be different, as almost all of the front office's efforts will be focused on shoring up the rotation.

  6. #26
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmerrickkeller View Post
    He will do this between mid-December and late January, because he doesn't want to wait until spring and have some teams lose a valuable piece (thereby raising the price of the remaining FA starters again). He wants those guys to think they'll be left in the cold and then start the negotiations.

    He should look to trade one of the assets (Morneau, Span, minor league outfielder) for additional help, if the market doesn't bring us a couple of starters and the shot at a middle infielder. What he will do is save those tradeable assets and a little room in the budget and treat fans as the team always has - if you show up and if we're playing well, we'll spend a little more money or make a trade to improve the team. If the fans don't show up and we're not playing well, we'll sell off what we can for less than they are worth and try the same formula again next year.
    Well I have already reserved my 20 game season ticket for 2013, but I am the Twins number one fan. If the FO wants to hook your 7/10er on a season package, they should consider fronting cash early and often in the offseason rather than hoping there are enough leftovers to pick up in January to keep the team from falling out of contention in the opening weeks.

  7. #27
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    Do not sign Capps and Marquis, and you have money. And, they could have spent more money, but chose not to. It is all about choices.
    Last edited by mike wants wins; 10-15-2012 at 01:53 PM.

  8. #28
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Do not sign Capps and Marquis, and you have money. And, they could have spent more money, but chose not to. It is all about choices.
    Let's not blur the issues. The Pohlads are responsible for the budget. If you have issues with the budget, that's another argument entirely. JR has nothing to do with it (or, perhaps more accurately, he has VERY LITTLE to do with it).

    Going into the season, the Twins looked to have a serviceable rotation. Marquis looked like he'd be pretty pedestrian but would post somewhere around a 90 ERA+. Baker looked great in 2011. Pavano looked to be meh but not terrible.

    That's 60% of the rotation that completely and utterly collapsed. It was my belief that the rotation should have been a bigger priority last offseason but given the amount of holes in the 2011 squad, it's damned hard to fault JR for prioritizing the offense over the pitching staff.

  9. #29
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    Given the Orioles success, and their deep pitching, could the Twins get Gausman for Span and random minor league pitcher? The Orioles should want that contract and position.

  10. #30
    Senior Member All-Star Boom Boom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    He's got to do better than Marquis. I think most Twins fans realized the rotation would be a weakness, and Ryan took the same approach to improving it as he did when the Twins were in the Dome - find a cheap, older veteran on a 1-year deal.
    He only took the "old" approach after he had spent most of his money on Willingham and Doumit. I wasn't a fan of the Marquis signing but it's not as if he had a ton of money left over to go get a decent pitcher after spending $10m on those two players. This season should be different, as almost all of the front office's efforts will be focused on shoring up the rotation.
    I guess we'll have to see just how much the Twins' previous toe-dips into the FA starter pool were budget-driven and how much they were philosophy-driven.

    Until he proves me otherwise, my suspicion is that TR is petrified of inking another Joe Mays deal, no matter how much more money he has to spend.

  11. #31
    The King In The North All-Star Nick Nelson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Given the Orioles success, and their deep pitching, could the Twins get Gausman for Span and random minor league pitcher? The Orioles should want that contract and position.
    The Orioles would never make that move, but it's a moot point since players can't be traded until a year after they're drafted.

  12. #32
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    Ya, that was a fantasy post. Of course, I would have just drafted him.....

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by greengoblinrulz View Post
    Until Ryan signs a FA pitcher to a 2yr deal..or more..he's never done it.
    Prove us cynics wrong...Id love to eat crow on this but time will tell
    Bob Tewksbury got a 2 year deal, but that's it. I too am a cynic as the arguement that Ryan never had any money to work with seems pretty thin. There was always money when it came to extending the legacy guys. Why there was money for the Miltons, Mays', Blackburns and Bakers of this world but none for pitchers proven else where shows this front office is not nearly open-minded enough when it comes to other teams pitchers.

    Also, Ryan took over in 1994 when the team still had plenty of offensive talent to compete and MLB payrolls weren't out of control. He was signing washed up vets like Tewksbury, Jim Deshaies, Mike Morgan, Greg Swindell and Sean Bergman back in the 1990's too.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Do not sign Capps and Marquis, and you have money. And, they could have spent more money, but chose not to. It is all about choices.
    Let's not blur the issues. The Pohlads are responsible for the budget. If you have issues with the budget, that's another argument entirely. JR has nothing to do with it (or, perhaps more accurately, he has VERY LITTLE to do with it).
    I've been told repeatedly that the Pohlad family has never denied a request to add payroll.

  15. #35
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Ryan would be foolish not to look at a long term deal. The pitching in this organization is very depleted at the upper levels. They need someone who is going to be around for more than a year. I am in favor of bringing in one guy on a 1 year deal, but they should be looking at two guys for 2-3 year deals. I do like the idea of going after Bedard... I think that has the potential to be a Willingham type deal.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Both Edwin Jackson and Shaun Marcum are affordable, if affordable means keeping with 2012 payroll.
    What would it take to make them consider signing with the Twins? The Twins are about to turn into the KC Royals, meaning they would have to overspend to get a decent pitcher to sign a contract.

    They could always pull the fast one and sign both pitchers to 2-3 YR deals and deal them in July for prospects when we are fighting to stay out of the cellar once again...

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by greengoblinrulz View Post
    Until Ryan signs a FA pitcher to a 2yr deal..or more..he's never done it.
    Prove us cynics wrong...Id love to eat crow on this but time will tell
    Bob Tewksbury got a 2 year deal, but that's it. I too am a cynic as the arguement that Ryan never had any money to work with seems pretty thin. There was always money when it came to extending the legacy guys. Why there was money for the Miltons, Mays', Blackburns and Bakers of this world but none for pitchers proven else where shows this front office is not nearly open-minded enough when it comes to other teams pitchers.

    Also, Ryan took over in 1994 when the team still had plenty of offensive talent to compete and MLB payrolls weren't out of control. He was signing washed up vets like Tewksbury, Jim Deshaies, Mike Morgan, Greg Swindell and Sean Bergman back in the 1990's too.
    Tewksbury had a WAR of 3 each year he pitched for the Twins, In 93 Deshaies had a war of 2.6. Contrast that with the WAR of Marcum 3.1 and 1.7 over the last two years.Single statistic analysis, but they pitched for some bad Twins teams.
    Milton for the Twins was worth every penny they paid him. They were not going to be able to afford him, that is why he was traded. The Twins would love to get a pitcher like him when he was here. Joe Mays had a phenomenal 2001 season and they paid out for his arbitration years. Then he got injured. I do not know why they signed Blackburn for so long (Nor have I ever read a reason why). The Mays and the Bakers show why they would be reluctant to sign a pitcher for more than two years. If they are a pitcher from another system why are they available? Star seeking a big contract, not a star seeking a big contract, or not very good looking for a contract. You are not going to sign the latter two groups to a long term contract. The star is not going to come here unless they are overpaid.
    Last edited by old nurse; 10-15-2012 at 07:59 PM.

  18. #38
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    Why are so worried about "overpaying"? You have to pay the market rate to get players. Why only aim for cheap players all the time? Why NEVER sign a free agent that is big time, never?
    Lighten up Francis....

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Why are so worried about "overpaying"? You have to pay the market rate to get players. Why only aim for cheap players all the time? Why NEVER sign a free agent that is big time, never?
    The stage that is the Twin Cities is not very big. Look where most of the big free agents go. It is not the midwest mid sized market cities. If the Twins were near championship level it might attract a big time free agent. They are not near that level. The Twins signed some of their own players to large contracts to keep them. If Santana had wanted to stay here, the Twins would have paid him. Puckett wanted to stay here, they paid him.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    If Santana had wanted to stay here, the Twins would have paid him.
    This is completely untrue. The Twins were not willing to pay Santana.

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