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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Over the course of 162 games... You have a roster of 25. Use them all
    I'm not against using the whole team, not at all; however, it's my belief that a team is better defensively and offensively when they are allowed to gel by knowing where they'll play and where they'll hit in the lineup.

    The combo of Whitaker and Trammell was about as effective in the middle IF, and as a double play combo, there ever was. Part of that was because they played so much together for so long. They knew each other's feeds at the pivot, they knew where the other would be on tough plays up the middle (like who would go for the ball, who would cover the bag if a force was possible at 2B) because they knew each other's range. Just a small sampling of the things you pick up as second nature when you play across from each other for so long.

    Go on the other side, a shortstop gets used to the range of his 3B and positions himself accordingly, then he has another another 3B he has to gauge then another.

    Or you have one guy who plays one position one day, then another the next and another the next. How is he gonna settle in? Cause all positions have their little intricacies. Our manager seems to think anyone can play anywhere and be expected to excel. Play a guy at 2B one day, then 3B the next, then 2B and move them all around.

    If you pick they best guys at each spot and play them there as much as possible, they can gel defensively and be a more cohesive defensive unit...
    Last edited by ThePuck; 10-20-2012 at 12:32 PM.

  2. #42
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Over the course of 162 games... You have a roster of 25. Use them all
    I'm not against using the whole team, not at all; however, it's my belief that a team is better defensively and offensively when they are allowed to gel by knowing where they'll play and where they'll hit in the lineup.

    The combo of Whitaker and Trammell was about as effective in the middle IF, and as a double play combo, there ever was. Part of that was because they played so much together for so long. They knew each other's feeds at the pivot, they knew where the other would be on tough plays up the middle (like who would go for the ball, who would cover the bag if a force was possible at 2B) because they knew each other's range. Just a small sampling of the things you pick up as second nature when you play across from each other for so long.

    Go on the other side, a shortstop gets used to the range of his 3B and positions himself accordingly, then he has another another 3B he has to gauge then another.

    Or you have one guy who plays one position one day, then another the next and another the next. How is he gonna settle in? Cause all positions have their little intricacies. Our manager seems to think anyone can play anywhere and be expected to excel. Play a guy at 2B one day, then 3B the next, then 2B and move them all around.

    If you pick they best guys at each spot and play them there as much as possible, they can gel defensively and be a more cohesive defensive unit...
    Everything you say makes perfect sense. I won't argue directly against any of it. A cohesive unit is something to strive for...

    However... Let's point out the obvious other side. The Rangers moved bodies around... Napoli would catch and play some 1b... Young was not only the DH but 3b, 1b and 2b. The Cards move em around... The Rays do as well... Prado moved around to suit the Braves along with multiple SS's in Atlanta. The Giants put out more lineups than anyone I'm guessing. Have the Tigers settled on a 2B. The A's lineup was pretty unpredictable throughout the year. The Angels are another example. For every Trammell, Whitaker combination you can come up with. You can come up with 5 other examples of moving bodies around succussfully throughout time. Granted... Injuries are the primary reason but a manager needs to be able to mix and match. If Chemistry doesn't develop... That's on the player.

    A SS needs to look around and see where the LF, CF and 3B is positioned. That's basic baseball. Nearly all double play partners like to recieve the ball in the same place for a smooth turn. If you have a guy who likes the ball at his feet when turning a double play. He's strange... Cut him.

    Trammell and Whitaker made a cohesive double play combo because they were good.

    As for knowing where you hit in the lineup. It only matters in the 1st inning. If you lead off the inning with your 7th hitter... Your #1 Hitter is now the cleanup guy. Each at bat is a situation in itself. Make solid contact when the situation calls for it. Go the other way when the situation calls for it. Moving someone from 3rd to 8th in the order is an ego blow and nothing more. The guys at the top of the lineup get up more often than the guys hitting 8th and 9th. Good hitters in front of Big Hitters. Then turn it over and do it again.
    Last edited by Riverbrian; 10-20-2012 at 01:43 PM.

  3. #43
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack View Post
    For all the talk about Mauer's contract, I'd rather be stuck with that than Fielder's.
    Really?

    Mauer - 8 years, $23 million per
    Fielder - 8 years, $24 million per

    Other factors - Fielder hits for more power and is never hurt. And he's one of the few hitters who can approach Mauer's OBP. Mauer's a 1/2 time catcher now, and has a well-documented injury history.

    I think I'd rather have Fielder's contract.
    Within a few years, there's a damned good chance the Fielder contract is viewed as one of the worst in baseball. He may never be hurt now but do you really expect that to continue as Fielder gains more weight and ages into his 30s?

    Guys with Fielder's build don't age gracefully and the Tigers signed him through his age 36 season. The guy can barely play a position at age 28. What's he going to be like at age 32? Age 35?

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack View Post
    For all the talk about Mauer's contract, I'd rather be stuck with that than Fielder's.
    Really?

    Mauer - 8 years, $23 million per
    Fielder - 8 years, $24 million per

    Other factors - Fielder hits for more power and is never hurt. And he's one of the few hitters who can approach Mauer's OBP. Mauer's a 1/2 time catcher now, and has a well-documented injury history.

    I think I'd rather have Fielder's contract.
    Within a few years, there's a damned good chance the Fielder contract is viewed as one of the worst in baseball. He may never be hurt now but do you really expect that to continue as Fielder gains more weight and ages into his 30s?

    Guys with Fielder's build don't age gracefully and the Tigers signed him through his age 36 season. The guy can barely play a position at age 28. What's he going to be like at age 32? Age 35?
    To quote Rod Beck: "I've never heard of anyone going on the DL because of strained fat."

    I would much rather have Fielder's contract from start to finish than Mauer's. Fielder is a better hitter and it really doesn't concern me all that much what happens eight years down the line. Teams that want to win don't use inflated contracts as excuses why they can't add more players. Even Mo Vaughn was relatively healthy and productive until his age 35 season (save for the one completely missed season) and I'd say they were very similar players and body types.

  5. #45
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notoriousgod71 View Post
    Even Mo Vaughn was relatively healthy and productive until his age 35 season (save for the one completely missed season) and I'd say they were very similar players and body types.
    Mo Vaughn is listed at 6'1", 225 lbs.

    Prince Fielder is listed at 5'11", 275 lbs.

    Mo Vaughn ballooned in weight right around the time when he stopped being effective (2001-2002), hitting somewhere around 275 lbs.

    Not to mention that Prince Fielder is 28 years old and already weighs 275 lbs. What is he going to look like as a 32 year old? Vaughn didn't start gaining weight until his 30s. This is what he looked like in 1996 (his age 28 season):

    od086.jpg

    I'll take Mauer's contract and cross my fingers.

  6. #46
    Senior Member All-Star JB_Iowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    This year is another example of... make the playoffs and anything can happen... Making the playoffs should be the primary goal every year.

    The talented Rangers, Angels, Dodgers and Red Sox never got in. They didn't achieve step one. Meanwhile the WS is about to be contested between an AL team with the worst record of all AL playoff participants winning a WEAK division led by Delmon "I don't care about baseball" Young and a Wildcard team that found a way to get the last spot in the door and is being led by the .220 hitting Descalso.

    Quick clarification. I'm not diminishing the accomplishments of the Tigers winning the weaker AL Central. I'm saying... Get into the playoffs. That's your goal. Once there... Anything can happen. Nothing happens if you don't get there.
    I disagree. I think something good can happen in the playoffs ONLY if you have good pitching. Not that good pitching guarantees playoff success (or even that you will get to the playoffs) but that you are pretty much doomed in the playoffs without it. And it isn't just good pitching ... I think Dombrowski is right that you need power pitching.

    Delmon has had a good post-season but I have absolutely no doubt that the Tigers are LED by Justin Verlander and Jose Miguel (Torres) Cabrera.

  7. #47
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    Cecil Fielder's last good season was his age 32 season, when he hit 39 HR's with the Yankees and Tigers. He was out of MLB after his age 34 season. Prince is already showing signs of not aging well - less range, power numbers down, inability to go 1B to 3B or score from 2B on a single. Detroit will not be happy with the last 2-4 seasons of this contract. And we will see how Leyland handles things when Martinez returns from injury next year. A good problem to be sure, but with Avila playing well and Cabrera and Fielder on the corners, will Martinez want to DH everyday?

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by notoriousgod71 View Post
    Even Mo Vaughn was relatively healthy and productive until his age 35 season (save for the one completely missed season) and I'd say they were very similar players and body types.
    Mo Vaughn is listed at 6'1", 225 lbs.

    Prince Fielder is listed at 5'11", 275 lbs.

    Mo Vaughn ballooned in weight right around the time when he stopped being effective (2001-2002), hitting somewhere around 275 lbs.

    Not to mention that Prince Fielder is 28 years old and already weighs 275 lbs. What is he going to look like as a 32 year old? Vaughn didn't start gaining weight until his 30s. This is what he looked like in 1996 (his age 28 season):

    od086.jpg

    I'll take Mauer's contract and cross my fingers.
    I don't believe either of those weights. I'll take five years of dominance over .320/.400/440 or whatever Mauer is going to give us.

  9. #49
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    You can believe or not believe those weights, it doesn't matter. A simple eye test tells you that Fielder is WAAAYYYYY heavier as a 28 year old than Vaughn was in the mid 90s (and let's not ignore Vaughn's 2 inch height advantage). Most sluggers are thick in their mid to late 20s but generally, they're not fat. That comes as they age into their 30s (just like everybody else).

    Given Prince's weight at age 28, what do you think he's going to look like in five years?

    Tigers-staff-blanks-Braves.jpg

    Mauer and Fielder are similar in WAR, despite Mauer playing half his games at first and DH, something I expect to see slightly less in 2013. Now that he has proven he's healthy again, I expect to see him behind the dish a little more often. That will only boost his WAR. To boot, guys who walk and hit for average tend to age very gracefully as long as they don't suffer career-ending injuries.

    Don't get me wrong, both Mauer and Fielder are risks aging into their 30s (as is everyone, really) but given Mauer's athleticism, physique, and high contact rate, I think he'll be just fine for several more years. I can't say the same for Prince, who could easily go the route of his father overnight.

  10. #50
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    Well said Brock. If (when) Fielder can't play 1B he becomes a DH. I'd suggest he already should be with Cabrera at 1B. What happens when V-mart comes back. That team is stacked with players whose best positions are 1B and DH. Ok, I got on a tangent there. When Mauer can't play C for the majority of his games he can still play a more than serviceable 1B. Five years of dominance? I realize you are referring to the next five, but over the last five Mauer has a combined WAR of 23.9 and Fielder is at 17.3. We obviously disagree on this, but I put Mauer's chances of repeating over the next five as being higher than Fielder's.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Physics Guy View Post
    Well said Brock. If (when) Fielder can't play 1B he becomes a DH. I'd suggest he already should be with Cabrera at 1B. What happens when V-mart comes back. That team is stacked with players whose best positions are 1B and DH. Ok, I got on a tangent there. When Mauer can't play C for the majority of his games he can still play a more than serviceable 1B. Five years of dominance? I realize you are referring to the next five, but over the last five Mauer has a combined WAR of 23.9 and Fielder is at 17.3. We obviously disagree on this, but I put Mauer's chances of repeating over the next five as being higher than Fielder's.
    Yes, we will obviously have to agree to disagree. I think we all agree that WAR is a flawed stat. In my opinion it gives too much credence to defensive position. Someone posted a WAR update at one point saying Span was a top ten player in the league. That's not close to accurate.

    As for contact rate, Fielder struck out less than Mauer in more PA this season. Their career OBP are very close and Fielder's slugging is 70 points higher.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by notoriousgod71 View Post
    Yes, we will obviously have to agree to disagree. I think we all agree that WAR is a flawed stat. In my opinion it gives too much credence to defensive position. Someone posted a WAR update at one point saying Span was a top ten player in the league. That's not close to accurate.

    As for contact rate, Fielder struck out less than Mauer in more PA this season. Their career OBP are very close and Fielder's slugging is 70 points higher.
    There is a lot more to being a contact hitter than not striking out. Over the course of his career, Mauer has a much better groundball rate and line drive rate than Fielder. That means he won't hit as many homeruns but he'll gather a lot more base hits. Fielder has a much higher flyball rate, which tend to be pulled down for outs unless they leave the park. There is a reason Mauer's career BABIP is over .040 higher than Fielder's.

    Mauer's swinging strike % is ridiculously low and his contact % is higher than Fielder's. When he swings, he simply doesn't miss the ball.

  13. #53
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    Mauer's 88Ks this year is more than he's ever had. Fielder 84Ks is the least he's ever had. Fielder's 162 game average for Ks is 121, Mauer's is 72. Mauer averages 16 more walks than strikeouts over 162 games. Fielder averages 30 less walks than strikeouts over 162 games.

    Mauer's career BA is .323, Fielder's is .287. Mauer's career numbers with RISP are better than Fielder's career numbers with RISP

    Fielder has never been the best at his position. Fielder has never won a gold glove. Fielder has never won an MVP. Fielder has never won a batting title.

    One has primarily been a catcher for his career. One has planted his stone feet at 1B for his career. But Fielder, like most 1Bs, hits home runs.
    Last edited by ThePuck; 10-20-2012 at 09:32 PM.

  14. #54
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Physics Guy's Avatar
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    Mauer has 6 years left on his contract. Fielder has 8 years left on his. I like our chances of getting better value for the duration of those contracts.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post

    This year is another example of... make the playoffs and anything can happen... Making the playoffs should be the primary goal every year.
    I'd call it more another example of when you have a virtually unhittable robot fronting your rotation, you tend to make your own luck come playoff time.

    The problem is virtually unhittable robots aren't an easy commodity to come across.

  16. #56
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    'This year is another example of... make the playoffs and anything can happen... Making the playoffs should be the primary goal every year.'

    I thought winning the W Series should be the goal every year. We know we need serious pitching to handle the major offenses we face in the playoffs and we've lost our last 12 postseason games. Yes, anything can happen, but, um, that hasn't worked out well for us over the last decade...

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    Hmmm......all of the "let's be like the Tigers" talk has gone oddly silent.

    But seriously, talk about "anything can happen in the playoffs". Who would have thunk that the Tigers could embarrass the Yankees in a 4-game sweep, then follow that up by embarrassing themselves while getting swept in the World Series?

    I picked them to lose, but I thought it would go 6, and the defense would be the Tigers downfall. I did not expect their big bats to be completely silenced like that. Their hitters looked helpless and clueless up there most of the time, particularly Fielder.

    Barry Zito had more RBI's than Prince Fielder in the World Series. That's pretty messed up.

  18. #58
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    Bye bye paper Tigers!

  19. #59
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    This year is another example of... make the playoffs and anything can happen... Making the playoffs should be the primary goal every year.

    The talented Rangers, Angels, Dodgers and Red Sox never got in. They didn't achieve step one. Meanwhile the WS is about to be contested between an AL team with the worst record of all AL playoff participants winning a WEAK division led by Delmon "I don't care about baseball" Young and a Wildcard team that found a way to get the last spot in the door and is being led by the .220 hitting Descalso.

    Quick clarification. I'm not diminishing the accomplishments of the Tigers winning the weaker AL Central. I'm saying... Get into the playoffs. That's your goal. Once there... Anything can happen. Nothing happens if you don't get there.
    I disagree. I think something good can happen in the playoffs ONLY if you have good pitching. Not that good pitching guarantees playoff success (or even that you will get to the playoffs) but that you are pretty much doomed in the playoffs without it. And it isn't just good pitching ... I think Dombrowski is right that you need power pitching.

    Delmon has had a good post-season but I have absolutely no doubt that the Tigers are LED by Justin Verlander and Jose Miguel (Torres) Cabrera.
    I think he was wrong.

  20. #60
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    I was wrong on the Cards. They looked like they had it. You just never know in this game. It makes the game beautiful. Cabrera and Fielder didn't do much to help the Tigers but they sure helped get them there but even Cabrera can't win this game by himself.

    Balance... Everything in life is Balance. From baseball to what you eat. The Twins are unbalanced because of Pitching. They don't have to have the best staff in baseball. They just need a staff that can compete with options to replace the ones who are not competing or can't compete.

    Let's face it... The Twins can upgrade at every single position. The only player that is potentially best in class is Ben Revere with his speed. Everyone else has someone better across MLB at something that they do well. We don't need an overhaul... We need pitching to restore some balance to this club.

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