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Thread: I think that is it about time that the Twins moved out of Rochester

  1. #41
    Interesting viewpoint.

    I grew up in Rochester. The first team I knew about was the Red Wings. I spent many evenings over those years going to Red Wing (later Silver) Stadium and watching some excellent baseball. So the idea that Rochester is somehow a less-than ideal minor-league affiliate town is pretty hard to swallow.

    The Twins have "treated" Rochester to putrid baseball pretty much from the first moment they signed up as the Twins Triple-A affiliate. While there are a lot of extenuating circumstances for last year, what with all the injuries the Twins suffered, "how bad" the product was last year really wasn't a significant departure from what the Twins put on the playing surface @ Frontier Field over the years.

    If anything, Twins management should be thankful Rochester hasn't terminated the working agreement.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Triple-A jtrinaldi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Crikket View Post
    Twins President Dave St. Peter indicated at an appearance this winter that a possible affiliation with the Saints was something the Twins could be interested in at some point. It was obvious that he and the Twins would not wade in to discussions until after the issue of a new stadium for the Saints was resolved (obviously to avoid the perception that any public financing would be benefiting the Twins, among other reasons). He mentioned how great it would be for Twins fans to have a guy like Sano playing in St. Paul this summer. Veeck and the Twins are smart enough not to enter in to any sort of affiliation agreement prematurely, but I came away with the feeling that there was certainly interest in exploring the possibility once the stadium issue gets worked out one way or another.

    The assumption is that they'd put their MWL low-A club in St. Paul, but honestly, there's really no reason to think St. Paul couldn't support a AAA team, outside of possible geographical challenges since St. Paul would be on the extreme edge of either the IL or PCL. They wouldn't be "competing" with the Twins any more than they do now. They attract about 8,000 fans per game already and somehow the Twins have managed to stay in business.
    That could work, with Burlington as the only team to be considered as the replacement. Beloit cannot be removed from the MWL because it is a community owned team.
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  3. #43
    Senior Member All-Star Jim Crikket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtrinaldi View Post
    That could work, with Burlington as the only team to be considered as the replacement. Beloit cannot be removed from the MWL because it is a community owned team.
    I'm curious about this. The only "protection" I understood community-owned teams had has to do with not having to worry about an "owner" uprooting the franchise and moving it. But that wouldn't protect the community from losing their Major League affiliation and, therefore, their membership in a particular minor league (such as the MWL).

    If a team has private ownership, it's certainly easier to pick up and move whenever a stadium lease expires. But communities also can lose their teams when affiliation contracts expire and neither their existing affiliate nor any other MLB organization enters in to a new agreement to provide players. There are also certain standards that minor league baseball requires each team's stadium to meet and older stadiums that are not renovated to meet those standards are also a risk to a community losing their team. (Cedar Rapids was definitely threatened with loss of their MWL team if they hadn't built a new stadium a decade or so ago.)

    I'm very certain that Beloit's community ownership would not preclude the Twins from moving their MWL affiliation elsewhere after their current contract expires at the end of this season. I would think that, unless Beloit could attract another MLB affiliate (which might be difficult with an unresolved stadium situation), they very possibly could lose their spot in the MWL. The Snappers, as an organization, could continue to exist, but without an agreement in place with a MLB organization to provide players, they would essentially be a baseball team without a roster.
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  4. #44
    Senior Member Double-A Neinstein's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtrinaldi View Post
    Yes I did, you just made an errant statement saying that there are no teams on the Mississippi, when in fact there are 3 A ball teams on the Mississippi, and on AAA.
    . . . . . . . . . .
    If you're going to comment on AAA Rochester baseball, you must first get "A" ball, Midwest League and Beloit out of your head.
    This thread has nothing to do with "A" ball, the Midwest League or Beloit.
    I'm sorry if I'm being redundant here, I just don't want to waste any more of your time or my own.
    Last edited by Neinstein; 03-10-2012 at 05:26 PM.
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  5. #45
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    Move to Fargo-Moorhead. The population is similar to the city of Rochester, is wealthier, and is loaded with Twins fans. By the way, I have no connection to anything NoDakian

  6. #46
    Senior Member Triple-A jtrinaldi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Crikket View Post
    I'm curious about this. The only "protection" I understood community-owned teams had has to do with not having to worry about an "owner" uprooting the franchise and moving it. But that wouldn't protect the community from losing their Major League affiliation and, therefore, their membership in a particular minor league (such as the MWL).

    If a team has private ownership, it's certainly easier to pick up and move whenever a stadium lease expires. But communities also can lose their teams when affiliation contracts expire and neither their existing affiliate nor any other MLB organization enters in to a new agreement to provide players. There are also certain standards that minor league baseball requires each team's stadium to meet and older stadiums that are not renovated to meet those standards are also a risk to a community losing their team. (Cedar Rapids was definitely threatened with loss of their MWL team if they hadn't built a new stadium a decade or so ago.)

    I'm very certain that Beloit's community ownership would not preclude the Twins from moving their MWL affiliation elsewhere after their current contract expires at the end of this season. I would think that, unless Beloit could attract another MLB affiliate (which might be difficult with an unresolved stadium situation), they very possibly could lose their spot in the MWL. The Snappers, as an organization, could continue to exist, but without an agreement in place with a MLB organization to provide players, they would essentially be a baseball team without a roster.
    Beloit is currently more than 3/4ths the way from raising enough money to put a new stadium in Beloit. I say Burlington because It was brought up last year that Burlington may be losing their MWL team. Not to mention they have been in last place in Attendence for the last 10 years. Beloit will be in danger of losing their team after Burlington loses theirs.
    It also helps having the Midwest league offices in Beloit.
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  7. #47
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strumdatjag View Post
    Move to Fargo-Moorhead. The population is similar to the city of Rochester, is wealthier, and is loaded with Twins fans. By the way, I have no connection to anything NoDakian
    I think it would be good to have a Dakota team represented in the system somewhere, maybe not AAA, though. Rochester is actually quite bigger than F-M.

  8. #48
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BD57 View Post
    Interesting viewpoint.

    I grew up in Rochester. The first team I knew about was the Red Wings. I spent many evenings over those years going to Red Wing (later Silver) Stadium and watching some excellent baseball. So the idea that Rochester is somehow a less-than ideal minor-league affiliate town is pretty hard to swallow.

    The Twins have "treated" Rochester to putrid baseball pretty much from the first moment they signed up as the Twins Triple-A affiliate. While there are a lot of extenuating circumstances for last year, what with all the injuries the Twins suffered, "how bad" the product was last year really wasn't a significant departure from what the Twins put on the playing surface @ Frontier Field over the years.

    If anything, Twins management should be thankful Rochester hasn't terminated the working agreement.
    You are looking it from the Rochester Native perspective. Clearly you are a Red Wings fan and probably not a Twins' fan.

    The Twins owe nothing to Rochester: They pay the salaries of the players and coaches and they put the product on the field that puts rear ends on seats that make money for the Red Wings' management. Also, the Twins pay a sum of money for the affiliation on top of that. So, basically, it is "rent" for use of the facilities. The Red Wings' management are the landlords and caretakers of the ball park and deal only with the upkeep of the park (part of it subsidized by the Twins) concessions and the silly in-between play antics.

    Selling another MLB team's gear from their website is totally unexcusable in my mind. They are still under contract with the Twins, last time I checked...
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  9. #49
    Selfishly, I'd like to see the Twins stay in Rochester. It is somewhat close to me and i like to go to the occasional game. The relationship with the Twins and Wings hasn't been great and if the Twins could find a way to bring the AAA team closer to Minnesota, they should probably do it.

  10. #50
    Senior Member All-Star Jim Crikket's Avatar
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    thrylos, I guess I don't understand why you think the Twins "don't owe Rochester" anything, beyond what they're contractually obligated to provide... but you think the people running the Rochester organization DO owe the Twins something beyond what's in their contract. Rochester is, I believe, a community owned organization, and their ability to maintain a quality facility relies on income. The crapfest that the Twins have provided recently, in terms of talent, has meant Rochester has lost revenue, so if they have a way to generate more revenue by selling merchandise of a team that's popular with their community fan base, I don't see why they "owe" the Twins anything that would be beyond what's in their contract either.

    If the Twins had a problem with an affiliate selling another team's merchandise, they need to include restrictive language in their contracts with affiliates. Of course, most minor league organizations would likely tell the Twins to shove that language up their ass and sign a different team.
    Last edited by Jim Crikket; 03-10-2012 at 08:06 PM.
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  11. #51
    There is WAY more to just moving an affiliated franchise then all of you are saying. Let's say the Twins were able to move their AAA team to St. Paul. Before doing so, an existing AAA franchise would need to either be sold and/or relocated (with current ownership) to St. Paul (or whatever city). You can't just add a team without removing on. Approval needs to be granted by not only the league itself (IL or PCL), but also from MiLB and MLB. I also believe (but I am not certain) that the Twins would need to approve the move of a team within their territory. Obviously they would approve if they want the affiliate there.

    If you wanted to put a AAA team in Dayton, OH then you need to get the Dayton franchise to first WANT to change levels. If they would choose to change levels, then you need to add another Class A team and reduce AAA by another team. The agreement between MiLB and MLB is so that all existing franchises are GUARANTEED to have a MLB affiliate. So, there is no way that Beloit could be a team without players. They are guaranteed to have a MLB affiliate.

    There is nothing stopping MiLB from setting up a team in ANY city that already hosts an affiliated or college-league team. If the proper approvals were granted, then a team could step into St. Paul without any compensation given, or approval granted from the Saints. However, it would be highly unlikely that that would happen while the Saints are still in town.

    Lastly, the minor league team decides which level it chooses to be in, not the MLB team affiliated with it. The MLB team simply has a "list" of teams at each level that it can negotiate and affiliate with.

  12. #52
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Crikket View Post
    thrylos, I guess I don't understand why you think the Twins "don't owe Rochester" anything, beyond what they're contractually obligated to provide... but you think the people running the Rochester organization DO owe the Twins something beyond what's in their contract. .
    a couple of things there:

    - First: I am not privy to those contracts and what is specified
    - Second: I am a Twins' fan and I don't care much about Rochester NY or that community (other than I want them to be safe prosperous and happy, like any other community in the world I am not living in.)

    And I will give you an example that might get my point across. Imaginary situation: College sports. Let's say basketball. Let's say that the Cyclones were killing it (pretty much) and the Hawkeyes did not make the NIT tourney. How would you feel if the Hawkeyes were peddling Cyclone, or Duke, or Ohio State gear in their web site?
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  13. #53
    There are LOTS of teams that sell merchandise of other league teams in their novelty store. I can't speak for what they do on their website.

    This has nothing to do with loyalty to their parent club and everything to do with providing a service to the fans (if the fans didn't want to buy them they wouldn't offer them for sale) and MAKING MONEY.

  14. #54
    Senior Member All-Star Jim Crikket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post

    And I will give you an example that might get my point across. Imaginary situation: College sports. Let's say basketball. Let's say that the Cyclones were killing it (pretty much) and the Hawkeyes did not make the NIT tourney. How would you feel if the Hawkeyes were peddling Cyclone, or Duke, or Ohio State gear in their web site?
    That's not the same thing... your example would be comparable to the Twins selling Yankees merchandise, not Rochester. If I owned a retail store in Iowa City that I decked out in black and gold and the U of I provided merchandise for me to sell, but they ended up fielding bad teams and crappy merchandise that didn't sell, while ISU merchandise turned out to be in high demand, I would sell what my customers are willing to pay for.

    DakotaTwins is right, this isn't about loyalty, it's about two businesses doing what they need to do to make money. Neither party is harmed in any way. You may not care about the community of Rochester, but the Red Wings organization certainly does... it must. They aren't owned by the Twins, they are merely a business partner. They make their money based on selling what those in the Rochester community want to buy. It's not surprising that a lot of that is Yankees merchandise.
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  15. #55
    Senior Member Triple-A jtrinaldi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Crikket View Post
    That's not the same thing... your example would be comparable to the Twins selling Yankees merchandise, not Rochester. If I owned a retail store in Iowa City that I decked out in black and gold and the U of I provided merchandise for me to sell, but they ended up fielding bad teams and crappy merchandise that didn't sell, while ISU merchandise turned out to be in high demand, I would sell what my customers are willing to pay for.

    DakotaTwins is right, this isn't about loyalty, it's about two businesses doing what they need to do to make money. Neither party is harmed in any way. You may not care about the community of Rochester, but the Red Wings organization certainly does... it must. They aren't owned by the Twins, they are merely a business partner. They make their money based on selling what those in the Rochester community want to buy. It's not surprising that a lot of that is Yankees merchandise.
    Exactly, they are just trying to Capitalize because SWB has to play a lot of games there,and Rochester is in NY,which is likely to have Yankee fans all over the state.
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  16. #56
    I've been a Twins fan since 1965, when I was 8. Watching the World Series that year is the first TV baseball I can remember.

    I don't live in Rochester now. Haven't since 1972, though I was back for summers through 1980 (end of college years). I've been living in Florida since 1972 - haven't been to Frontier Field in Rochester ... seen more games @ the Metrodome than any other MLB park and really, really want to see Target Field, just haven't been able to make it work out yet. Like I said, I live in Florida now.

    My Minnesota bona fides ....

    While I was born in Iowa, my dad grew up in Lakefield Minnesota; my mom in St. Paul. My dad has an EE degree from the University of Minnesota and is a big supporter of the Williams Fund. I get the "Sports package" on DirecTV for one reason, and one reason only - I get to watch University of Minnesota hockey during the winter months. I was at the U when TCF Bank Stadium opened.

    The first Twins game I saw in person, Tom Hall pitched 5 perfect innings, Harmon & Leo Cardenas hit home runs and the Twins won. Went to an 11:00 a.m. game with my dad in 1987, during the pennant drive. Came to Minnesota in 2007 to celebrate my dad's 80th birthday - we celebrated at a Twins game (went again the next day too). The weekend TCF Bank opened, my youngest and i went to two Twins games. I have Extra Innings, MLB.TV & the "At Bat" app so I can watch / listen to Twins games wherever I might be at the moment. As miserable as last year was, I probably watched 120 of the games - maybe even more.

    I was a Little League manager for two years - we were the "Twins" both years. My "real" jerseys ... a BP jersey I wore while managing my Twins teams (because that's what the kids jerseys looked like); the current home jersey (customized); a Joe Mauer 2011 3rd Jersey (the reproduction of the 60's flannel); and three Mitchell & Ness jerseys ... Killebrew '65, Killebrew '69 (road) and Puckett '84. Add to that a Twins "heavy" jacket from 5+ years ago or so (the one you saw Gardy wearing whenever it was chilly) and at least a half-dozen "on the field" fitted Twins hats ... plus a couple of the "BP" hats.

    In short ... I don't have to defend my "Twins" roots or rooting interest to you or anyone else.

    It is GOOD BUSINESS for the MLB club to take care of and care for their minor league affiliates. You want "loyalty up" the chain of command? Lead by example & show loyalty down that chain of command.

    The Twins don't "own" the Red Wings; they aren't guaranteeing that the Red Wings will "break even," etc. Want to sell more Twins stuff? Put a good product on the field.

    The Twins haven't been doing that for Rochester. Add to that the perception that the MLB guys don't like Rochester - while there have been exceptions, more often than not, the MLB guys go anywhere but Rochester for their rehab assignments. Seriously ... what is a major league baseball player doing playing "High-A" games in Florida to get ready to play in the bigs?

    The Twins haven't done a good job with Rochester. They'd be wise to start.

  17. #57
    Senior Member All-Star Jim Crikket's Avatar
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    While I agree with BD57, in general, the only point I'd make is with regard to rehab assignments. Pitchers have gone to Rochester as part of their rehab more than hitters have and that's primarily because, as a pitcher, you want to face the highest level hitters you can. Hitters are generally more concerned about just getting timing down and getting some work in the field and that can be done at any level. Since the Miracle play their games at the Twins' winter complex, they have training facilities and staff down there that aren't necessarily available at other minor league clubhouses. Of course, if the Twins did find a way to place an affiliate in St. Paul, that would no longer be an issue, since the rehabbing player could work out with Twins staff at TF.
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