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Thread: Blue Jays need a left handed hitting power bat at 1B. We have 2 of them.

  1. #21
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by twinscowboysbulls View Post
    Johnson > Buerhle
    Well, duh. But considering how Toronto only has Johnson for one season, I doubt they're willing to part with him for anything less than a king's ransom.

    Buerhle and his considerable contract may be a different matter entirely.
    You hated Buehrle's contract when the Jays acquired it, citing money owed in 2014 and 2015 as reasons the Twins shouldn't have made a similar deal with the Marlins.

    Now you want to give up Morneau to acquire Buehrle.

    Weird.

  2. #22
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Deck Mcquire... Chad Jenkins... Kyle Drabek... I have no idea if they are any good... But it looks like the Jays have some extra young arms for consideration... Give me a couple of those and I'll pray for their success.

  3. #23
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by twinscowboysbulls View Post
    Johnson > Buerhle
    Well, duh. But considering how Toronto only has Johnson for one season, I doubt they're willing to part with him for anything less than a king's ransom.

    Buerhle and his considerable contract may be a different matter entirely.
    You hated Buehrle's contract when the Jays acquired it, citing money owed in 2014 and 2015 as reasons the Twins shouldn't have made a similar deal with the Marlins.

    Now you want to give up Morneau to acquire Buehrle.

    Weird.
    I'm pretty sure I mentioned that the contract is more palatable if the Twins can jettison Morneau's $14m contract for 2013.

    And I've repeatedly mentioned how I don't like Buerhle's contract. You know, like in the post directly beneath the one you quoted. The Marlins' needs didn't line up with the assets the Twins were willing to part with to get Buerhle. Toronto has a very different set of needs, particularly because it appears that they're going all-in for 2013.

  4. #24
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    I like that idea as well but I don't think the Jays would do it, their pitching situation is bad.

    It would be much more the Jays style to wait until Buehrle exhausts all remaining value and then trade him to the Angels.

  5. #25
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by twinscowboysbulls View Post
    Johnson > Buerhle
    Well, duh. But considering how Toronto only has Johnson for one season, I doubt they're willing to part with him for anything less than a king's ransom.

    Buerhle and his considerable contract may be a different matter entirely.
    You hated Buehrle's contract when the Jays acquired it, citing money owed in 2014 and 2015 as reasons the Twins shouldn't have made a similar deal with the Marlins.

    Now you want to give up Morneau to acquire Buehrle.

    Weird.
    I'm pretty sure I mentioned that the contract is more palatable if the Twins can jettison Morneau's $14m contract for 2013.

    And I've repeatedly mentioned how I don't like Buerhle's contract. You know, like in the post directly beneath the one you quoted. The Marlins' needs didn't line up with the assets the Twins were willing to part with to get Buerhle. Toronto has a very different set of needs, particularly because it appears that they're going all-in for 2013.
    And Morneau's $14M contract for 2013 has what to do with 2014 and 2015?

    You'll also have a hard time convincing me the Twins couldn't have matched, or beat, what the Jays gave the Marlins, so I'm no buying the "need's didn't line up" rationale.

    I would have loved for the Twins to end up with Reyes, Buehrle and Josh Johnson, basically for little besides money. But that's because it included Josh Johnson and Jose Reyes. Seems kind of...hypocritical to say you didn't like the Jays end of the Marlins deal because of Buehrle, then turn around and love the idea of giving up your first baseman, just to get Buehrle.

  6. #26
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    And Morneau's $14M contract for 2013 has what to do with 2014 and 2015?

    You'll also have a hard time convincing me the Twins couldn't have matched, or beat, what the Jays gave the Marlins, so I'm no buying the "need's didn't line up" rationale.

    I would have loved for the Twins to end up with Reyes, Buehrle and Josh Johnson, basically for little besides money. But that's because it included Josh Johnson and Jose Reyes. Seems kind of...hypocritical to say you didn't like the Jays end of the Marlins deal because of Buehrle, then turn around and love the idea of giving up your first baseman, just to get Buehrle.
    It's not that difficult. I am against the Twins giving up prospects at this point. It's that simple. The Marlins would have required prospects in return and it's unlikely the Pohlad's would have agreed to the kind of money required to keep Johnson, Buerhle, and Reyes. So, the deal was basically a no-go with the Marlins and the salary considerations for picking up both Reyes and Buerhle are ridiculous. They'd do serious long-term damage to this franchise.

    But now we're talking about the Jays. A Jays team that *might not* want to keep all that salary around for 3+ years. Reyes is only slotted to make $10m in 2013 but that number jumps to $22m in the final year of Buerhle's contract and goes through 2018. The Jays also happen to need a first baseman. Maybe toss in Revere and you're starting to put together a package that isn't so bad and it's a package that doesn't cost the Twins a prospect.

    Does it hamstring the Twins a bit in 2014 and 2015? Sure, and that's a serious downside of acquiring Buerhle. On the other hand, it also gives the Twins the ability to dish Span off for a lower level prospect instead of worrying about the Major League franchise so much. Is this likely to happen? Probably not, but it should be on the table.

  7. #27
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    please for the love of God stop suggesting we try to get Mark Burhle.

  8. #28
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Absolutely not on Buerhle, if we are going to over pay for a pitcher I would rather go out and give Greinke 100 mil then that turd Buerhle, also Johnson is going no where.

  9. #29
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    Kudos to the Jays for the Deal of the Decade, if not Century. That being said, I don't think they are done. There are several free agents out there yet plus, it seems, they are very creative on the trade front. While Morneau would be a great publicity move, I don't think they look at him before next years trade deadline.

  10. #30
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    And Morneau's $14M contract for 2013 has what to do with 2014 and 2015?

    You'll also have a hard time convincing me the Twins couldn't have matched, or beat, what the Jays gave the Marlins, so I'm no buying the "need's didn't line up" rationale.

    I would have loved for the Twins to end up with Reyes, Buehrle and Josh Johnson, basically for little besides money. But that's because it included Josh Johnson and Jose Reyes. Seems kind of...hypocritical to say you didn't like the Jays end of the Marlins deal because of Buehrle, then turn around and love the idea of giving up your first baseman, just to get Buehrle.
    It's not that difficult. I am against the Twins giving up prospects at this point. It's that simple. The Marlins would have required prospects in return and it's unlikely the Pohlad's would have agreed to the kind of money required to keep Johnson, Buerhle, and Reyes. So, the deal was basically a no-go with the Marlins and the salary considerations for picking up both Reyes and Buerhle are ridiculous. They'd do serious long-term damage to this franchise.

    But now we're talking about the Jays. A Jays team that *might not* want to keep all that salary around for 3+ years. Reyes is only slotted to make $10m in 2013 but that number jumps to $22m in the final year of Buerhle's contract and goes through 2018. The Jays also happen to need a first baseman. Maybe toss in Revere and you're starting to put together a package that isn't so bad and it's a package that doesn't cost the Twins a prospect.

    Does it hamstring the Twins a bit in 2014 and 2015? Sure, and that's a serious downside of acquiring Buerhle. On the other hand, it also gives the Twins the ability to dish Span off for a lower level prospect instead of worrying about the Major League franchise so much. Is this likely to happen? Probably not, but it should be on the table.
    Am I reading this correctly? You want to send Morneau AND Revere to Toronto for Buehrle?

    Good lord.

    Toronto is able to get Johnson and Reyes for basically nothing but money, but have to take Buehrle's contract off the Marlins hands to get the deal done. And you want to bail Toronto out by taking Buehrle off thier hands? Why in heaven's name wouldn't the Twins have simply given a few decent, not great, prospects (and that's all Miami got) and gotten all three players then? You could still deal Morneau (and Revere) at that point, and you'd have Josh Johnson and Buehrle in the rotation and Reyes at short.

    Buehrle was the yucky medicine you had to swallow in order to get the sugar (Johnson and Reyes). He's not someone you go out and acquire now, all by his lonesome.

  11. #31
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Maybe toss in Revere and you're starting to put together a package that isn't so bad and it's a package that doesn't cost the Twins a prospect.
    Revere has barely two years cracked into the arb clock and won't be a FA till 2018. He's a pretty good bet to put up 2 wins+ for bottom dollar over the next 4 seasons. That is a little more than a toss in, esp. when you're weighing him against a guy with 50 million of guaranteed money coming his way. The Jays would snap that up in a heartbeat.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Maybe toss in Revere and you're starting to put together a package that isn't so bad and it's a package that doesn't cost the Twins a prospect.
    Revere has barely two years cracked into the arb clock and won't be a FA till 2018. He's a pretty good bet to put up 2 wins+ for bottom dollar over the next 4 seasons. That is a little more than a toss in, esp. when you're weighing him against a guy with 50 million of guaranteed money coming his way. The Jays would snap that up in a heartbeat.
    Not a huge fan of Revere's skill set (he seems like a good kid), but NO to using him get Buehrle unless the Jays throw in a pile of $$$ also.

  13. #33
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    Can we just stop talking about getting Buerhle? It wouldnt be a good trade whether it be for Revere or Morneau.

  14. #34
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Am I reading this correctly? You want to send Morneau AND Revere to Toronto for Buehrle?

    Good lord.

    Toronto is able to get Johnson and Reyes for basically nothing but money, but have to take Buehrle's contract off the Marlins hands to get the deal done. And you want to bail Toronto out by taking Buehrle off thier hands? Why in heaven's name wouldn't the Twins have simply given a few decent, not great, prospects (and that's all Miami got) and gotten all three players then? You could still deal Morneau (and Revere) at that point, and you'd have Josh Johnson and Buehrle in the rotation and Reyes at short.

    Buehrle was the yucky medicine you had to swallow in order to get the sugar (Johnson and Reyes). He's not someone you go out and acquire now, all by his lonesome.
    Stop pretending that Reyes' contract is some kind of steal for the Jays. The dude is owed between $88m and $106m over the next 5-6 years. Here is his WAR for the past four seasons: 0.8, 2.2, 4.7, 2.8... all for the low, low price of ~$17m a season. Whooo, sign me up twice. The Marlins were idiots for handing out that contract in the first place (as they were with the Buerhle contract). He's never going to play up to anything close to the kind of money he's due.

    The Buerhle contract is far from perfect but if you sweeten the deal a little and give up someone and get the Jays to pay some of the balance in 2014/2015, it might be a viable deal. Perfect? No, but when you need at least three starting pitchers for the upcoming season, it's not a bad place to start because dealing Morneau keeps you payroll-neutral in the short-term, allowing you to go get more arms via free agency.

    And stop acting as if the Twins taking on $50m in salary this season was ever on the table. There's no way they would have acquired those three guys from the Marlins. It simply wasn't going to happen.

  15. #35
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS View Post
    Can we just stop talking about getting Buerhle? It wouldnt be a good trade whether it be for Revere or Morneau.
    God forbid that we lose Morneau's 0.8 WAR and replace it with Buerhle's 3.2 WAR. That'd really be devastating.

    Any pitcher the Twins acquire this offseason is going to have flaws. That's just how this works. If you're looking for the perfect pitcher to slot into the rotation and hold out waiting for that Prince Charming to materialize, you're going to end up watching a full season of Samuel Deduno throwing balls over Joe Mauer's head. Is Mark Buerhle the best option out there? Possibly, possibly not. But for the love of Christ, he should be the subject of at least one phone call this offseason.

  16. #36
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    And stop acting as if the Twins taking on $50m in salary this season was ever on the table. There's no way they would have acquired those three guys from the Marlins. It simply wasn't going to happen.
    Oh snap! Now ya done it! The Possible Police are going to raid this thread and scold you for pointing out that it could happen and it isn't unrealistic!

  17. #37
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    And stop acting as if the Twins taking on $50m in salary this season was ever on the table. There's no way they would have acquired those three guys from the Marlins. It simply wasn't going to happen.
    Buehrle, JJ, Reyes and Buck will combine to earn $40.75M in 2013, not $50M. And the Marlins sent $4M in cash, so the cost in 2013 is $37.75M.

    The Twins, as they stand right now, have something on the order of $70M on the books for 2013. Adding $38M to that gets us to around $108M, and doesn't factor in any salary the Twins might have sent the Marlins way (Escobar, for example, will be paid by the Marlins in 2013.)

    I don't think it's at all accurate to say there's no way the Twins could have put together something similar. In fact, just the opposite. If Toronto could do it, so could the Twins.

    The Twins, if ownership wanted, could afford another $20M on top of that, and likely not lose money.

  18. #38
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Ownership has shown on multiple occasions that they would never consider such a move. That's all there is to it. You can disagree with them all you want but they hold the purse strings.

  19. #39
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    I mentioned this in another thread. I don't think money is the issue at all here. Chief is right. The Twins could have taken on these salaries and salary dumped Morneau to the Jays or Mariners for a low level prospect and the salary range would be very reasonable.

    The point I want to make is.... How does anyone know that the Twins were not on the phone trying to swing the deal and simply didn't have the players that interested the Marlins. Maybe the Marlins liked the Jays offer better... How does anyone know.

    My god... We have people attacking our front office because two other teams made a trade. If you sit and think about that... You can see the craziness. Can't we. Everyone realizes that 29 other teams exist and are working as well. Talk about some sort of Twinscentric Bubble.

    The Twins have no pitching to offer back. Maybe the Marlins said... Terry... That's a nice package but we simply don't want 8 outfielders... We are going to do this deal with the Jays instead.

    With That said.. What a perfect package of players for the Twins... Reyes and Bonofocio could have stabilized MI and put our speed level to Top of the league by miles. Johnson and Buerhle would have provided much needed pitching. Not to mention the big jolt of energy for the franchise.
    Last edited by Riverbrian; 11-14-2012 at 10:37 PM.

  20. #40
    Twins Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Ownership has shown on multiple occasions that they would never consider such a move. That's all there is to it. You can disagree with them all you want but they hold the purse strings.
    Yes they do. Tightly.

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