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Thread: Article: Character vs. Production

  1. #21
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    The fact that he is coming off a down year and has a bad reputation would seem to make him a great buy low candidate. Its worth a phone call at least.

  2. #22
    The King In The North All-Star Nick Nelson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TK10 View Post
    Also, acquiring an avowed homophobe, in a market that just rejected adding homophobia to its state constitution, would really help the Twins acquire and keep the vital 20something demographic.
    He's not quite an "avowed homophone." Escobar claims that the message wasn't intended to be offensive and that he has no problem with gays. Whether you choose to believe him is up to you.

    Regardless of his true feelings on the matter, he's entitled to his opinion and as long as he doesn't project it or turn it into an issue again I don't see why it should have any bearing on the Twins' desire to acquire him to play baseball.

    Quote Originally Posted by rico7961
    Why wouldn't you take a chance on Escobar. At 5M a year for 2013 with Club options for 2014 and 2015 its a chance to take.
    Escobar's contract, to me, is one of the most appealing things about him. If he turns things around and proves to be a good citizen, you've got the option to bring him back at the same very reasonable price. If not, you cut ties and move on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio
    Are there any additional "attitude" incidents beyond the one linked? I can't find any. If there aren't any other incidents, how does this one translate into being a bad clubhouse guy or demonstrate a pattern to be wary of? Sign him up.
    I don't know if there have been any publicized incidents but my understanding is that attitude/clubhouse issues contributed to Atlanta getting rid of him.

  3. #23
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Hey... I'm no different than anybody else. If given the choice I'll take the 5 extra hits... Who wouldn't?

    Where we differ is pretty simple. I'm pretty consistent in my belief that attitude question marks are a bad idea and 5 extra hits will not be enough if this guy truly has a bad attitude. No matter what TR does this off season... It's safe to assume that the Twins will not be confused with the Rangers on opening day. It doesn't mean that the Twins can't win. But the task gets harder if you bring in guys who get moody... Frustrated easy and don't battle thru things and I think the Twins will have to battle thru some things.

    I love stats... I'm going over them all the time.... But baseball teams can't be built by stats alone. There is a human element and Escobar has been run off of two teams. I don't know why... But he has despite... providing that extra hit a week.

    I don't believe that players are individuals who effect no one like they are some computer animated thing. I believe the team is a team and each individual effects the rest. That's why baseball is a team game despite having more individual match ups than any major team sport.

    As for the value of those 5 hits. Lets use Escobar for an example... .290 in 2011 and .253 in 2012... Without getting into advanced metrics... What happened? BAPIP? Was it luck? Did he face tougher pitching... It's the same player and similiar amount of data. Was it a routine dip? Or the start of a downtrend. Was it the fact that the Blue Jays were playing .500 ball in 2011 and 8 games below .500 in 2012?

    I don't have the answer but the fact that almost every individual player in baseball will swing those 5 hits from year to year tells me don't wring your hands over it.

    One last thing. This is my opinion but I'm consistent... The Twins could bring in Tulo and you'd be pouring it straight down the toilet because the pitching is that bad. If you have 5 million to spend on a SS... You'd be better off applying that 5 million to a pitcher to address the main problem directly. Tulo isn't going to overcome an ERA in the 5's...

    I realize that any new pitching acquisitions could go belly up and suck but at least you are trying to fix what is preventing the team from competing.

    And to tie a nice bow on it... If the new pitching acquired does not get the job done and the pitching still sucks in 2013... You better have a SS and a team full of players that is still willing to fight and still believes it can win regardless. Escobar has been run off two teams... Drew off of one... Neither of them are Tulo and neither can overcome our current pitching.

  4. #24
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    The Difference between the .280 hitter and the .230 hitter is 5 hits over 100 at bats. If you consider this fact... Ladies and Gentlemen... Character ends up being the true difference that matters.
    5 hits over 100 at bats is a pretty big difference. It sounds like less when you phrase it that way, but with an extra .050 of batting average Drew Butera would have hit .248 in 2012, making him a decent every day catcher.
    Or with 5 hits less... Drew would have hit .148... It goes both ways.

  5. #25
    Senior Member All-Star Ultima Ratio's Avatar
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    I did find reports of other eye black incidents, which show his immaturity -- not an irrational fear of homosexuals. Apparently he's written "WTF" and "No Penis" in his eye black in the past, which clearly shows an open bigotry toward women and the epicene (no penis) and quizzical happenings (WTF). I'm sure there's a phobia in there somewhere.


    <<<Sarcasm>>>

    http://outsports.com/jocktalkblog/20...his-eye-black/

  6. #26
    Agree with Rico and hammer, if we could get him for one or two C or C+ prospects (guys likely not in the top 20 MN prospects), then taking a chance for the $5M he's owed in 2013 makes a lot of sense. If he turns out to disappoint on or off the field, it is a one year experiment. If he's better than expected, the club options give you multi year possibilities....makes too much sense.....

  7. #27
    He is an avowed homophobe. We have to own our actions. He claimed he doesn't have anything against gays because the Blue Jays and his agent put a metaphorical gun to his head. Additionally, if he actually, with a straight face, says his actions weren't intended to be offensive, than he's an idiot. Is he entitled to his opinion and free speech and all that good stuff? Yes, he is. But when you spew the kind of nonsense he did, then you deserve to driven out of town on a rail.

  8. #28
    Junior Member Rookie twinslover's Avatar
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    I personally don't care if he suffers from homophobia, hetero-phobia, agoraphobia, or arachnophobia. I think bringing him in has to be considered and if they can get him for a non-descript prospect there is very little risk.

  9. #29
    Hey yeah, if you can get a cross burner for the right price, might as well do it.

  10. #30
    Go ahead, sign him. Then I can have a proven idiot to direct all of my frustration at next summer. Kind of like when Luke Scott or Nyjer Morgan are in town, but Escobar will be there everyday! Whee!

  11. #31
    Invest wisely. If a cancer is introduced to the team you may come to regret it big time.

    Twins should be able to find good character guys who can play

  12. #32
    Senior Member Double-A
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    The real problem isn't homophobia or any other phobia. Plain and simple, his production is not worth $4.5 million more than Floriman or Dozier. He is not an elite player and the Twins need the extra money for pitching. The problem with most middle of the road FA signings is that they are only marginally better than players that cost substantially less, yet teams get very excited about them and end up with players making mutiple millions per year that just dont perform much better than guys making the minimum.

  13. #33
    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linus View Post
    The real problem isn't homophobia or any other phobia. Plain and simple, his production is not worth $4.5 million more than Floriman or Dozier. He is not an elite player and the Twins need the extra money for pitching. The problem with most middle of the road FA signings is that they are only marginally better than players that cost substantially less, yet teams get very excited about them and end up with players making mutiple millions per year that just dont perform much better than guys making the minimum.
    Escobar's career OPS is .743. As recently as 2011 he put up a .290/.363/.413 line. Were he to approach either of those numbers, that is NOT marginally better than Floriman, and most likely not marginally better than Dozier (who probably isn't in the SS conversation anymore, rightly or wrongly.)

    "Not much better" is, in the end, "better." Small differences add up, particularly in major league baseball.

    The question is not whether Escobar has been, in the past, better than anything the Twins are likely to run out at SS in 2013. If he did, he'd easily be worth $5M. The question is, will he perform at past levels.

  14. #34
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    Chemistry is not as overated as some of you seem to think. Players who only play for their own stats after a period of time wear out their welcome (read Delmon Young). Great for the first year or so with a club and out of welcome by the end of the second or third year. Players like this only tend to play hard when it is to their benefit or in a contract year. Put a team out of contention by the end of July and they dog it. Would not want Escobar at any price. He has now been in 2 or 3 major league orgainizations and has worn out his welcome in all of them. Stephen Drew has only been in 2 places and Oakland wants him back(at the right price). Twins should offer him a contract and see if he is interested(low first year plus incentives and then good options for year 2 or 3).

  15. #35
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    The Twins already possess an abundance of chemistry, it would be swell to balance that out with a little more talent.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ballÖ and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  16. #36
    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beckmt View Post
    Chemistry is not as overated as some of you seem to think. Players who only play for their own stats after a period of time wear out their welcome (read Delmon Young). Great for the first year or so with a club and out of welcome by the end of the second or third year. Players like this only tend to play hard when it is to their benefit or in a contract year. Put a team out of contention by the end of July and they dog it. Would not want Escobar at any price. He has now been in 2 or 3 major league orgainizations and has worn out his welcome in all of them. Stephen Drew has only been in 2 places and Oakland wants him back(at the right price). Twins should offer him a contract and see if he is interested(low first year plus incentives and then good options for year 2 or 3).
    I'd be fine with Drew.

    That being said, I'm not sure how Escobar having been "in 2 or 3 major league organizations (it's 3)" is evidence that he's worn out his welcome or constitutes a "chemistry" problem, while Drew coming to the Twins (which would be his third major league organization since August) isn't evidence of same.

  17. #37
    Senior Member Double-A
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Linus View Post
    The real problem isn't homophobia or any other phobia. Plain and simple, his production is not worth $4.5 million more than Floriman or Dozier. He is not an elite player and the Twins need the extra money for pitching. The problem with most middle of the road FA signings is that they are only marginally better than players that cost substantially less, yet teams get very excited about them and end up with players making mutiple millions per year that just dont perform much better than guys making the minimum.
    Escobar's career OPS is .743. As recently as 2011 he put up a .290/.363/.413 line. Were he to approach either of those numbers, that is NOT marginally better than Floriman, and most likely not marginally better than Dozier (who probably isn't in the SS conversation anymore, rightly or wrongly.)

    "Not much better" is, in the end, "better." Small differences add up, particularly in major league baseball.

    The question is not whether Escobar has been, in the past, better than anything the Twins are likely to run out at SS in 2013. If he did, he'd easily be worth $5M. The question is, will he perform at past levels.
    Let me re-phrase my point: Escobar is clearly better than anything the Twins currently have. How much will depend on how much he returns to form and how much whoever the Twins throw out there improves. My point is that the extra $5 million is WAY more valuable being spend on more / better pitching than to bring in Escobar. Twins are far better off with better pitching and not having him. Now if money is no object, fine but that is clearly not the situation.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris in Osaka View Post
    Character and lockerroom issues are overrated. If he can hit, then he should be pursued.
    Agreed here. Just get something decent(regardless of issues) to stop the revolving door until you can get an equal to or better, younger, long term solution.

  19. #39
    Some posters would advocate signing the devil himself if it meant a handfull of hits and a better arm. Character does matter.

  20. #40
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Some posters would advocate signing Mother Teresa herself, despite it guaranteeing 100-loss seasons. Talent does matter.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ballÖ and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

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