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Thread: Article: Twins trade Denard Span for Nationals' 2011 first round pick

  1. #201
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Gun View Post
    I understand that we don't need Span. Doesn't Span have alot more value than Meyer? Doesn't Span have more value than Benson, Hicks, ect,?
    Why the rush to trade him? Would not Benson or Hicks for Meyer be better? Could we make the same or better deal next fall?
    Benson would not land you anything close to Meyer, his value is about as low as it could be currently.
    Sure the Twins could have maybe traded Hicks for Meyer, but it would have been a mistake. As nice as 3 years of Span would be, 6+ years of Hicks (for even cheaper overall) is the superior choice to keep for a rebuilding team like the Twins.

    It should be noted that Hicks has a greater upside then Span had/has as he is a better fielder, has more speed on the basepaths, has more power, has a better arm and a better eye at the plate. The main question with Hicks at this point is will he be able to continue to hit for averag and continue to increase his power.
    Vodkadave... You should also mention that the Nationals would rather have Span right now because Span will be of more use in 2013.
    I mean that is probably true, but I'm not sure the Nats would have told the Twins "we have no interest in Hicks". There is a decent to good chance that Hicks can contribute in 2013 and even though the Nats are set up very nicely for 2013, they are set up even more nicely for 2014-2015.I

    I guess what I am saying is it wouldn't have killed the Nats to bring in Hicks and keep Harper in CF for another half season. I'm just personally glad the Twins traded Span rather then Hicks.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    I'm not so sure what is so ridiculous about that, if anything it shows how high of value a major league ready #2 has. Gonzalez was one of the best 5 pitchers in the game this year. Span highly likely won't even be one of the top 5 CF in baseball this year (if that is the comparison you are trying to draw)
    I had to read that twice, because I wasn't sure if you were referring to Gonzalez or Millone as the MLB ready #2 (You're referring to Gonzalez, right?)

    edit: because, at the time, they were both MLB ready no. 2's, even if BA didn't include Millone in their rankings.

    Gonzalez had a great year. Bill James thinks he will regress back into that no. 2.

    So, Peacock, Cole, Norris - they were all just gravy, along with the 3 extra years of team control on their new no. 2 starter.
    This may be splitting hairs but I didn't hear anyone calling Millone a sure thing major league ready #2, Gonzalez was and continues to remain the much better pitcher. There is a reason why Millone wasn't cracking the top 100 lists everywhere... Peacock was the centerpiece of that trade, no?

    The comparison is still moot as Gonzalez is a top flight pitcher and Span is an above average CF. Which one of those are harder to find on the FA market/trade market?
    I'd say Billy Beane has hairsplitting down to an art/science. The Twins actually should be in a greater position of strength in conducting trades than the A's (the 2nd team in a market to the all-powerful Giants), who surely must have taken Hell in even considering dealing away Gonzalez.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    2015 at the earliest...so that's what we are shooting for...
    Barring any setbacks and expecting a standard progression, Meyer will be in AA this season.

    So you expect him to pitch 1 1/2 seasons in Rochester?
    I don't assume he'll start in AA and even if he did, 2015 would mean one year in AA and one year in AAA

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Gun View Post
    It's not what the Twins loss, but waht did they gain in the next 4 years? Nothing!
    4? Meyers will be up in 3 or less, imo. They also freed up money, that they can now use to sign two legit pitchers, instead of one. Let's see what they do with the money before totally giving up on this year....
    You assume the money will be spent...we dropped 18M off 2011 payroll last year...didn't spend it

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Gun View Post
    I understand that we don't need Span. Doesn't Span have alot more value than Meyer? Doesn't Span have more value than Benson, Hicks, ect,?
    Why the rush to trade him? Would not Benson or Hicks for Meyer be better? Could we make the same or better deal next fall?
    Benson would not land you anything close to Meyer, his value is about as low as it could be currently.
    Sure the Twins could have maybe traded Hicks for Meyer, but it would have been a mistake. As nice as 3 years of Span would be, 6+ years of Hicks (for even cheaper overall) is the superior choice to keep for a rebuilding team like the Twins.

    It should be noted that Hicks has a greater upside then Span had/has as he is a better fielder, has more speed on the basepaths, has more power, has a better arm and a better eye at the plate. The main question with Hicks at this point is will he be able to continue to hit for averag and continue to increase his power.
    Vodkadave... You should also mention that the Nationals would rather have Span right now because Span will be of more use in 2013.
    I mean that is probably true, but I'm not sure the Nats would have told the Twins "we have no interest in Hicks". There is a decent to good chance that Hicks can contribute in 2013 and even though the Nats are set up very nicely for 2013, they are set up even more nicely for 2014-2015.I

    I guess what I am saying is it wouldn't have killed the Nats to bring in Hicks and keep Harper in CF for another half season. I'm just personally glad the Twins traded Span rather then Hicks.
    The point is moot as the Nats already have their own Hicks in Brian Goodwin. Span has just become his placeholder.

  6. #206
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    So we wait 2 more years for hicks while we could be playin span by that time buxton and a few more will be ready and Myers hasn't pitched yet.

  7. #207
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top Gun View Post
    So we wait 2 more years for hicks while we could be playin span by that time buxton and a few more will be ready and Myers hasn't pitched yet.
    2 more years? There is a good chance Hicks is up this year, and barring a major injury or significant regression he will certainly be in the plans at the beginning of next year.

    Your being silly now with your (Meyer wont dont anything for 4 years and Hicks won't be ready for 2 years) when in fact that is simply false.

  8. #208
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Gun View Post
    I understand that we don't need Span. Doesn't Span have alot more value than Meyer? Doesn't Span have more value than Benson, Hicks, ect,?
    Why the rush to trade him? Would not Benson or Hicks for Meyer be better? Could we make the same or better deal next fall?
    Benson would not land you anything close to Meyer, his value is about as low as it could be currently.
    Sure the Twins could have maybe traded Hicks for Meyer, but it would have been a mistake. As nice as 3 years of Span would be, 6+ years of Hicks (for even cheaper overall) is the superior choice to keep for a rebuilding team like the Twins.

    It should be noted that Hicks has a greater upside then Span had/has as he is a better fielder, has more speed on the basepaths, has more power, has a better arm and a better eye at the plate. The main question with Hicks at this point is will he be able to continue to hit for averag and continue to increase his power.
    Vodkadave... You should also mention that the Nationals would rather have Span right now because Span will be of more use in 2013.
    I mean that is probably true, but I'm not sure the Nats would have told the Twins "we have no interest in Hicks". There is a decent to good chance that Hicks can contribute in 2013 and even though the Nats are set up very nicely for 2013, they are set up even more nicely for 2014-2015.I

    I guess what I am saying is it wouldn't have killed the Nats to bring in Hicks and keep Harper in CF for another half season. I'm just personally glad the Twins traded Span rather then Hicks.
    The point is moot as the Nats already have their own Hicks in Brian Goodwin. Span has just become his placeholder.
    Goodwin is a nice prospect, but lets not say he is "their Hicks" he has exactly 100 games in his professional career and struggled quite a bit in AA. Hicks is a easily a superior prospect to Goodwin at this time, ntm Goodwin still might be a corner OF instead of a CF anyways.

  9. #209
    all you clowns are simply missing the point on why this trade happened. Now Terry Ryan can follow organization philosophy. Step one: Draft/acquire power pitcher. Step 2: trade for Delmon Young.

    We're comin!

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    I'm not so sure what is so ridiculous about that, if anything it shows how high of value a major league ready #2 has. Gonzalez was one of the best 5 pitchers in the game this year. Span highly likely won't even be one of the top 5 CF in baseball this year (if that is the comparison you are trying to draw)
    I had to read that twice, because I wasn't sure if you were referring to Gonzalez or Millone as the MLB ready #2 (You're referring to Gonzalez, right?)

    edit: because, at the time, they were both MLB ready no. 2's, even if BA didn't include Millone in their rankings.

    Gonzalez had a great year. Bill James thinks he will regress back into that no. 2.

    So, Peacock, Cole, Norris - they were all just gravy for the A's, along with the 3 extra years of team control on their new no. 2 starter.

    edit 2: again i don't have an angle. I'm not trying to grill JR or anything, I just can't get over how some of these deals come to pass and others don't.
    Milone isn't a #2, he's more like Slowey or Blackburn type. Was never a big time prospect. Benefits greatly from pitching in Oakland (has horrible h/r splits). Cole and Peacock were the better prospects although Peacock struggled a ton this year and some prospect guys (KLaw) thought he was a bullpen arm. Meyer has a better ceiling than both of them.

  11. #211
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Is there an ignore feature on this site? Serious question.
    No, but I've thought about looking into it, if only for my own sanity.
    Whew, I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way.
    I'd pay a membership fee for that feature! That and a "blowhard" warning.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Gun View Post
    I understand that we don't need Span. Doesn't Span have alot more value than Meyer? Doesn't Span have more value than Benson, Hicks, ect,?
    Why the rush to trade him? Would not Benson or Hicks for Meyer be better? Could we make the same or better deal next fall?
    Benson would not land you anything close to Meyer, his value is about as low as it could be currently.
    Sure the Twins could have maybe traded Hicks for Meyer, but it would have been a mistake. As nice as 3 years of Span would be, 6+ years of Hicks (for even cheaper overall) is the superior choice to keep for a rebuilding team like the Twins.

    It should be noted that Hicks has a greater upside then Span had/has as he is a better fielder, has more speed on the basepaths, has more power, has a better arm and a better eye at the plate. The main question with Hicks at this point is will he be able to continue to hit for averag and continue to increase his power.
    Vodkadave... You should also mention that the Nationals would rather have Span right now because Span will be of more use in 2013.
    I mean that is probably true, but I'm not sure the Nats would have told the Twins "we have no interest in Hicks". There is a decent to good chance that Hicks can contribute in 2013 and even though the Nats are set up very nicely for 2013, they are set up even more nicely for 2014-2015.I

    I guess what I am saying is it wouldn't have killed the Nats to bring in Hicks and keep Harper in CF for another half season. I'm just personally glad the Twins traded Span rather then Hicks.
    The point is moot as the Nats already have their own Hicks in Brian Goodwin. Span has just become his placeholder.
    Goodwin is a nice prospect, but lets not say he is "their Hicks" he has exactly 100 games in his professional career and struggled quite a bit in AA. Hicks is a easily a superior prospect to Goodwin at this time, ntm Goodwin still might be a corner OF instead of a CF anyways.
    Let's go to the "source", the guy we all agree has it right on Meyer, John Sickels:

    http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/...evision-update

    John Sickels Top 120 Prospects (2012 Mid-season Updated Edition)

    #12 Miguel Sano (MN Twins)

    #45 Eddie Rosario (Mn Twins)


    #64. Oswaldo Arcia (MN Twins)
    #65 Brian Goodwin (Wa Nats)
    #74 Alex Meyer (Mn Twins)


    #120-----------


    Players under consideration who didn't make the top 120

    Aaron Hicks (MN Twins)
    Last edited by jokin; 11-29-2012 at 11:23 PM.

  13. #213
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Twins Twerp's Avatar
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    More people viewed this page than bought lottery tickets last night...fact based analysis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Is there an ignore feature on this site? Serious question.
    No, but I've thought about looking into it, if only for my own sanity.
    Double click on the icon (or name and choose view profile) of the person you want to ignore and choose the option "Add to ignore list".
    Last edited by ScottyB; 11-29-2012 at 11:11 PM.

  15. #215
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    Meyers & Hicks are prospects and nothin more, who is to say he can replace Span, could easily be someone else. The same goes for Meyers. The Twins could play like the Orioles next season why the rush to trade Span now for a prospect when we can do it when we are 10 games out and in last place. The fans need a team this year too, not in 4 or 5 years. I won't even be around to see it by then.

  16. #216
    Super Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    If Ryan had made this move at the trade deadline everybody would have lauded it, to get a relatively high ceiling pitching prospect for a guy like Span is more than acceptable and is an appropriate direction to take. The two biggest needs identified by the majority of posters here are either major league ready starting pitching and starting pitching depth on the farm, seems to me TR just helped to address the latter and he addressed it from a position of organizational depth.

    To categorize this as a salary dump is just taking the extreme cynical view. To profess these types of moves are necessary for the team to move forward and criticize Ryan for not having the foresight to make them, only to turn around and accuse him of dumping salary when he does, is at best disingenuous.

    Unless you just want to be one of those who see fit to convince themselves that Meyers will ultimately be a bust, I don't see the problem with this move.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top Gun View Post
    Meyers & Hicks are prospects and nothin more, who is to say he can replace Span, could easily be someone else. The same goes for Meyers. The Twins could play like the Orioles next season why the rush to trade Span now for a prospect when we can do it when we are 10 games out and in last place. The fans need a team this year too, not in 4 or 5 years. I won't even be around to see it by then.
    Top Gun. I cannot guess on your health status, but in my deepest heart of hearts, I hope you are around to see the next Twins World Championship.

  18. #218
    Super Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Gun View Post
    I understand that we don't need Span. Doesn't Span have alot more value than Meyer? Doesn't Span have more value than Benson, Hicks, ect,?
    Why the rush to trade him? Would not Benson or Hicks for Meyer be better? Could we make the same or better deal next fall?
    Benson would not land you anything close to Meyer, his value is about as low as it could be currently.
    Sure the Twins could have maybe traded Hicks for Meyer, but it would have been a mistake. As nice as 3 years of Span would be, 6+ years of Hicks (for even cheaper overall) is the superior choice to keep for a rebuilding team like the Twins.

    It should be noted that Hicks has a greater upside then Span had/has as he is a better fielder, has more speed on the basepaths, has more power, has a better arm and a better eye at the plate. The main question with Hicks at this point is will he be able to continue to hit for averag and continue to increase his power.
    Vodkadave... You should also mention that the Nationals would rather have Span right now because Span will be of more use in 2013.
    I mean that is probably true, but I'm not sure the Nats would have told the Twins "we have no interest in Hicks". There is a decent to good chance that Hicks can contribute in 2013 and even though the Nats are set up very nicely for 2013, they are set up even more nicely for 2014-2015.I

    I guess what I am saying is it wouldn't have killed the Nats to bring in Hicks and keep Harper in CF for another half season. I'm just personally glad the Twins traded Span rather then Hicks.
    The point is moot as the Nats already have their own Hicks in Brian Goodwin. Span has just become his placeholder.
    Goodwin is a nice prospect, but lets not say he is "their Hicks" he has exactly 100 games in his professional career and struggled quite a bit in AA. Hicks is a easily a superior prospect to Goodwin at this time, ntm Goodwin still might be a corner OF instead of a CF anyways.
    Let's go to the "source", the guy we all agree has it right on Meyer, John Sickels:

    http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/...evision-update

    John Sickels Top 120 Prospects (2012 Mid-season Updated Edition)

    #12 Miguel Sano (MN Twins)

    #45 Eddie Rosario (Mn Twins)


    #64. Oswaldo Arcia (MN Twins)
    #65 Brian Goodwin (Wa Nats)
    #74 Alex Meyer (Mn Twins)


    #120-----------


    Players under consideration who didn't make the top 120

    Aaron Hicks (MN Twins)
    The argument has gone from Span/Meyer to Hicks/Goodwin and when I wake up tomorrow morning It will probably move furthur down the line into calculating electron cloud shapes.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinsnorth49 View Post
    If Ryan had made this move at the trade deadline everybody would have lauded it, to get a relatively high ceiling pitching prospect for a guy like Span is more than acceptable and is an appropriate direction to take. The two biggest needs identified by the majority of posters here are either major league ready starting pitching and starting pitching depth on the farm, seems to me TR just helped to address the latter and he addressed it from a position of organizational depth.

    To categorize this as a salary dump is just taking the extreme cynical view. To profess these types of moves are necessary for the team to move forward and criticize Ryan for not having the foresight to make them, only to turn around and accuse him of dumping salary when he does, is at best disingenuous.

    Unless you just want to be one of those who see fit to convince themselves that Meyers will ultimately be a bust, I don't see the problem with this move.
    This is an agressive move that helps the team move forward. It officially acknowledges that the Twins are in rebuilding mode, as they should be. They made an attempt at going for, at best, a future #1-2 starter, or at worst, a closer/set-up guy. It does cut payroll in the short run, to set the team up better as the next wave emerges in 2014-15-16. Span was the #1 logical trading chip to acquiring a front-end SP and still maintain the semblance of a strong positional lineup to have a chance to make a run in 2013. If anyone can show evidence that the Twins are going to go all-in on signing Greinke and another top #2 FA pitcher, it's time to present the evidence or admit the truth. Any move coming up at the Winter Meetings or later can only serve to weaken the positional lineup and/or to further cut payroll in the short run (trading of one or more of the Big 3), to set up a stronger push in 2014 or 15.

    I can't speak for other posters, but I was certainly hoping a move like this was multi-player to better address the multi-needs. It's unfortunate and disappointing that Span (with or without a package) couldn't have garnered more than just one pitcher currently at A level and with mechanical issues in a tall pitcher that in the past have appeared to be beyond the Twins level of expertise in fixing.
    Last edited by jokin; 11-29-2012 at 11:54 PM.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by spycake View Post
    You can see Meyer's college stats here:

    http://www.thebaseballcube.com/playe...P=alex-meyer-3

    His previous high innings total was 101, so perhaps he tired later this season in high-A. He was "shut down" at 129 innings, Strasburg-style. I like that he's already made progress with control -- hopefully the Twins can keep his K rate up.

    Here's a cool article about him and his pitches:

    http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp...milb&fext=.jsp
    Thanks for the links. Meyer said he needs to refine his circle change. Sounds like Cuellar has another spring training assignment

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