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Thread: Article: Twins trade Denard Span for Nationals' 2011 first round pick

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    Here is to hoping that Revere puts up another solid year and proves he can play. As long as he can get his walks up a bit he will be an adequate lead off hitter. He is a good ballplayer and if he can improve is OBP % the boys behind him should be able to get him in!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I don't think it is Revere hate, it is more "Revere hasn't proven he's good yet, but so many people are already crowning him that we are shovelling all kinds of realism on him....". Some people are stating that Revere is better than Span....that seems....not to be true just yet. So, many others are basically pointing out his weaknesses to offset those arguments. But ya, I think he's a very good to great defender that has not YET figured out how to get on base enough to offset his lack of power.
    I wouldn't argue your points... Revere has weaknesses and so does Span... And they both have strengths.

    I think we can all agree that I'm a Revere supporter. Keep in mind that I'm also a Span supporter and I think worrying about whose better between Span and Revere is crazy and doesn't really matter.

    Revere is as good as they come in the outfield when it comes to going and getting it.
    Span is as good as they come when it comes to plate discipline.
    Niether has a decent arm. One Guy hits more doubles. One Guy Steals More bases. One guy is more experienced and one guy is less expensive.

    If I had to pick between them to win right now with a gun to my head... I'd choose Span but not by a bunch. If I had to pick a player to win later.. I'd pick Revere but not by a bunch. These are my opinions and I understand that they don't reflect everybody. For 2012... I really liked them both in the OF together. For 2013, 2014, 2015... I really want pitching... I would have traded Span and I'd move Revere as well if the right offer came along.

    I like em both... I will miss Span and the full weight of my support is behind Revere and I don't worry about him in CF at all. I'm going to enjoy him while he has a starting job because he's good baseball.

  3. #303
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    If denard was worth a #2 prospect , could we have gotten a #11 and a #20 prospect from the phillys for him? #11 is petitbone ,not dazzaling but solid middle of the rotation pitcher ready to contribute some time in 2013 season ,and ruf is a righthanded masher who plays 1b .
    He hit 41 homeruns between AA and the majors last year .
    My complaint or disapointment is,we filled only 1 hole and will wait 2-4 years to see if he pans out.
    Also i am not convinced chris parmele has what it takes to replace justin morneau ,preinjury.I hope parm makes me eat a big crow sandwich and i end up admitting terry ryan was correct , but its a long wait to know

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by 70charger View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    No need to quote all of the posters on this page vis` a vis Span/Revere dialogue. I am in the camp that Revere is overrated by the Twins and many posters from this thread. Example: statements like Revere>>>>>>Span or Span's defence improved because of Revere or Revere is a better leadoff hitter than Span--all rubbish. But at least it wasn't as vile as the trash Souhan wrote in the Strib today. I don't know if he is writing from a Twins script or is completely clueless. Consider this: if Revere was better than Span why didn't WASH ask for him instead of Span? The Twins need for starting pitching is so high they wouldn't refuse that trade to get Meyer. Goodness, if that happened they could offer Span to CIN and cross there fingers on Hicks (well actually when they drafted him 1st in '08 they did!) and play him in 2013. Truth is Span is a proven quality player at a good price and he would be selected by basically every MLB team to be their CF (the Twins did last year!) rather than Revere. Yes, there are better CFs on other teams. Trading Span will likely translate into fewer wins unless the next wave is started this year and they fully meet or exceed expectations. If next week doesn't yield quality ML experienced pitchers to make 2013 at least plausibly successful, the Twins might just as well align as this: 1) SP de jure 2) Mauer 3) Parmalee 4) ?? 5) Plouffe 6) Florimon 7) Revere 8) Hicks 9) Arcia DH) Willingham and let the chips fall as they may.
    How do you know that no one offered for Revere instead of Span? Maybe they did, but the Twins didn't bite because (a) they think Revere is as good as Span/better than Span/good enough to bridge the gap to Hicks, and (b) Revere costs literally millions of dollars less.

    Also, your claim that others' claims about Revere viz. Span are "rubbish" is conclusory. At least offer some evidence instead of dismissing other peoples' points of view out of hand. If all your argument consists of is the fact that it was Span and not Revere traded, then you're working off a whole mess of assumptions that you can't back up.
    Skimming through the Span/Revere debate, it's positively glaring how ignored this simple fact is maintained and disregarded by the pro-Denard camp. Getting a replacement CF for 10% on the Span dollars yields you far more than just 10% of Span's value to the Twins.


    Most all Twins fans on both sides of the argument will miss Denard, but this is something that had to happen, and it makes the most business sense besides.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 70charger View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    No need to quote all of the posters on this page vis` a vis Span/Revere dialogue. I am in the camp that Revere is overrated by the Twins and many posters from this thread. Example: statements like Revere>>>>>>Span or Span's defence improved because of Revere or Revere is a better leadoff hitter than Span--all rubbish. But at least it wasn't as vile as the trash Souhan wrote in the Strib today. I don't know if he is writing from a Twins script or is completely clueless. Consider this: if Revere was better than Span why didn't WASH ask for him instead of Span? The Twins need for starting pitching is so high they wouldn't refuse that trade to get Meyer. Goodness, if that happened they could offer Span to CIN and cross there fingers on Hicks (well actually when they drafted him 1st in '08 they did!) and play him in 2013. Truth is Span is a proven quality player at a good price and he would be selected by basically every MLB team to be their CF (the Twins did last year!) rather than Revere. Yes, there are better CFs on other teams. Trading Span will likely translate into fewer wins unless the next wave is started this year and they fully meet or exceed expectations. If next week doesn't yield quality ML experienced pitchers to make 2013 at least plausibly successful, the Twins might just as well align as this: 1) SP de jure 2) Mauer 3) Parmalee 4) ?? 5) Plouffe 6) Florimon 7) Revere 8) Hicks 9) Arcia DH) Willingham and let the chips fall as they may.
    How do you know that no one offered for Revere instead of Span? Maybe they did, but the Twins didn't bite because (a) they think Revere is as good as Span/better than Span/good enough to bridge the gap to Hicks, and (b) Revere costs literally millions of dollars less.

    Also, your claim that others' claims about Revere viz. Span are "rubbish" is conclusory. At least offer some evidence instead of dismissing other peoples' points of view out of hand. If all your argument consists of is the fact that it was Span and not Revere traded, then you're working off a whole mess of assumptions that you can't back up.
    Skimming through the Span/Revere debate, it's positively glaring how ignored this simple fact is maintained and disregarded by the pro-Denard camp. Getting a replacement CF for 10% on the Span dollars yields you far more than just 10% of Span's value to the Twins.


    Most all Twins fans on both sides of the argument will miss Denard, but this is something that had to happen, and it makes the most business sense besides.
    When do I get my check? Is payroll a pressing problem? Will this "saving" be used for anything for the fans? Don't bother to answer I already know.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 70charger View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    No need to quote all of the posters on this page vis` a vis Span/Revere dialogue. I am in the camp that Revere is overrated by the Twins and many posters from this thread. Example: statements like Revere>>>>>>Span or Span's defence improved because of Revere or Revere is a better leadoff hitter than Span--all rubbish. But at least it wasn't as vile as the trash Souhan wrote in the Strib today. I don't know if he is writing from a Twins script or is completely clueless. Consider this: if Revere was better than Span why didn't WASH ask for him instead of Span? The Twins need for starting pitching is so high they wouldn't refuse that trade to get Meyer. Goodness, if that happened they could offer Span to CIN and cross there fingers on Hicks (well actually when they drafted him 1st in '08 they did!) and play him in 2013. Truth is Span is a proven quality player at a good price and he would be selected by basically every MLB team to be their CF (the Twins did last year!) rather than Revere. Yes, there are better CFs on other teams. Trading Span will likely translate into fewer wins unless the next wave is started this year and they fully meet or exceed expectations. If next week doesn't yield quality ML experienced pitchers to make 2013 at least plausibly successful, the Twins might just as well align as this: 1) SP de jure 2) Mauer 3) Parmalee 4) ?? 5) Plouffe 6) Florimon 7) Revere 8) Hicks 9) Arcia DH) Willingham and let the chips fall as they may.
    How do you know that no one offered for Revere instead of Span? Maybe they did, but the Twins didn't bite because (a) they think Revere is as good as Span/better than Span/good enough to bridge the gap to Hicks, and (b) Revere costs literally millions of dollars less.

    Also, your claim that others' claims about Revere viz. Span are "rubbish" is conclusory. At least offer some evidence instead of dismissing other peoples' points of view out of hand. If all your argument consists of is the fact that it was Span and not Revere traded, then you're working off a whole mess of assumptions that you can't back up.
    Skimming through the Span/Revere debate, it's positively glaring how ignored this simple fact is maintained and disregarded by the pro-Denard camp. Getting a replacement CF for 10% on the Span dollars yields you far more than just 10% of Span's value to the Twins.


    Most all Twins fans on both sides of the argument will miss Denard, but this is something that had to happen, and it makes the most business sense besides.
    When do I get my check? Is payroll a pressing problem? Will this "saving" be used for anything for the fans? Don't bother to answer I already know.
    When do I get my check?
    If you're a Twins shareholder, the check is in the mail

    Is payroll a pressing problem?
    The Twins have stated that it is throughout the Pohlad era, so I guess the answer is "yes".

    Will this "saving" be used for anything for the fans?
    Directly, no. Hopefully the braintrust has admitted that they're shooting for a huge run in 2015 and are going to devote all their financial resources towards that end; the only question that remains is: Do Twins fans have the Delayed Need Gratification traits that early 80s and late 90s fans were forced to embrace waiting for the turn.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I don't think it is Revere hate, it is more "Revere hasn't proven he's good yet, but so many people are already crowning him that we are shovelling all kinds of realism on him....". Some people are stating that Revere is better than Span....that seems....not to be true just yet. So, many others are basically pointing out his weaknesses to offset those arguments. But ya, I think he's a very good to great defender that has not YET figured out how to get on base enough to offset his lack of power.
    I wouldn't argue your points... Revere has weaknesses and so does Span... And they both have strengths.

    I think we can all agree that I'm a Revere supporter. Keep in mind that I'm also a Span supporter and I think worrying about whose better between Span and Revere is crazy and doesn't really matter.

    Revere is as good as they come in the outfield when it comes to going and getting it.
    Span is as good as they come when it comes to plate discipline.
    Niether has a decent arm. One Guy hits more doubles. One Guy Steals More bases. One guy is more experienced and one guy is less expensive.

    If I had to pick between them to win right now with a gun to my head... I'd choose Span but not by a bunch. If I had to pick a player to win later.. I'd pick Revere but not by a bunch. These are my opinions and I understand that they don't reflect everybody. For 2012... I really liked them both in the OF together. For 2013, 2014, 2015... I really want pitching... I would have traded Span and I'd move Revere as well if the right offer came along.

    I like em both... I will miss Span and the full weight of my support is behind Revere and I don't worry about him in CF at all. I'm going to enjoy him while he has a starting job because he's good baseball.
    Quick quiz:

    Player A: 624 AB, .274 BA, 96 R, 9 HR, 57 RBI, 42 SB .739 OPS
    Player B: 511 AB, .294 BA, 70 R, 0 HR, 32 RBI, 40 SB .675 OPS

    How much more will CFer, Player A make than CFer, Player B in 2013?

    The answer: Player A will likely make as much as $17MM more than Player B, even though when combining the defensive metric, runs taken away, with the runs-produced, numbers aren't all that far apart.

    I'm sure you can easily figure out which is which, who is who, and which one is the new Twins CFer (who happens to be 6 years younger and theoretically is that many years away from his own peak numbers)
    Last edited by jokin; 11-30-2012 at 08:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post

    After being teased in the media about going after guys like Shields and Cingrani, can you see why expectations had to be adjusted?
    I'm not sure about the teasing, Meyer is a far better option than either of these two. Cingrani projects to be a 2/3 type pitcher and Sheilds has 1 year left on his deal. The Twins need depth at pitching just as much as they need it at the major league level. This was a smart move. They have a nice core of hitters coming up through the system which will complement a decent core of hitters that are currently here. But with no pitching, they will be mediocre.

    I have no idea if Meyer will make it, but they've added some desparately needed talent to the pitching pool to complement the nice core of hitters they already have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top Gun View Post
    I say load up on one top tier FA every year. Then you got yourself a team.
    Yeah, and that team is the Chicago Cubs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post

    After being teased in the media about going after guys like Shields and Cingrani, can you see why expectations had to be adjusted?
    I'm not sure about the teasing, Meyer is a far better option than either of these two. Cingrani projects to be a 2/3 type pitcher and Sheilds has 1 year left on his deal. The Twins need depth at pitching just as much as they need it at the major league level. This was a smart move. They have a nice core of hitters coming up through the system which will complement a decent core of hitters that are currently here. But with no pitching, they will be mediocre.

    I have no idea if Meyer will make it, but they've added some desparately needed talent to the pitching pool to complement the nice core of hitters they already have.
    Getting a Meyer, with a very spotty college record, dominating kids younger than himself in A ball, short on fluid pitching mechanics on the come is far riskier than either Shields or Cingrani, but admittedly with a bigger potential payoff far down the road. I think it is incumbent on Parker Hageman to do an in-depth video/statistical comp on Randy Johnson's career at the same point to provide some vision to Twins fans on what may or may not be in store 5 years from now.

    Obviously, a trade for Shields would have to have involved some kind of contract extension implicit in the trade, perhaps that's why the deal was never consumated. Cingrani has a lower ceiling than Meyer to be sure, but he could have been penciled into the desperately-seeking-arms-rotation sometime in 2013. Meyer is looking like a 2015 impact SP if everything plays out perfectly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post

    Getting a Meyer, with a very spotty college record, dominating kids younger than himself in A ball, short on fluid pitching mechanics on the come is far riskier than either Shields or Cingrani, but admittedly with a bigger potential payoff far down the road. I think it is incumbent on Parker Hageman to do an in-depth video/statistical comp on Randy Johnson's career at the same point to provide some vision to Twins fans on what may or may not be in store 5 years from now.

    Obviously, a trade for Shields would have to have involved some kind of contract extension implicit in the trade, perhaps that's why the deal was never consumated. Cingrani has a lower ceiling than Meyer to be sure, but he could have been penciled into the desperately-seeking-arms-rotation sometime in 2013. Meyer is looking like a 2015 impact SP if everything plays out perfectly.
    2015 is probably a worst case. He's going to likely start in FTM and get promoted to NB in 2013. He might even go the Garza route and hit Rochester next year too. He will likely be in AAA in 2014 and if all goes well, will get the call if the team needs him. I for one would rather have the ceiling at the moment. The Twins will probably go after one long term FA signing that could be penciled into the rotation for the forseable future (crossing fingers and hoping for A. Sanchez) along with a couple of 1/2 year prove it type guys. I half expect them to take a college pitcher next year too.

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    The more I think about it, the Twins should have recieved a throw in to the deal. Maybe a c proscpect in a ball or a reliever, or lambardozzi or something as Span is a bargain at 21 million for 3 years compared to what Bourn will cost when he signs. Meyer is a great prospect and does a great job headlining the deal but he is still in A ball and we should be able to get something else to mitigate that risk so we still end up with some value should Meyer flop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post

    Getting a Meyer, with a very spotty college record, dominating kids younger than himself in A ball, short on fluid pitching mechanics on the come is far riskier than either Shields or Cingrani, but admittedly with a bigger potential payoff far down the road. I think it is incumbent on Parker Hageman to do an in-depth video/statistical comp on Randy Johnson's career at the same point to provide some vision to Twins fans on what may or may not be in store 5 years from now.

    Obviously, a trade for Shields would have to have involved some kind of contract extension implicit in the trade, perhaps that's why the deal was never consumated. Cingrani has a lower ceiling than Meyer to be sure, but he could have been penciled into the desperately-seeking-arms-rotation sometime in 2013. Meyer is looking like a 2015 impact SP if everything plays out perfectly.
    2015 is probably a worst case. He's going to likely start in FTM and get promoted to NB in 2013. He might even go the Garza route and hit Rochester next year too. He will likely be in AAA in 2014 and if all goes well, will get the call if the team needs him. I for one would rather have the ceiling at the moment. The Twins will probably go after one long term FA signing that could be penciled into the rotation for the forseable future (crossing fingers and hoping for A. Sanchez) along with a couple of 1/2 year prove it type guys. I half expect them to take a college pitcher next year too.

    Re: Sanchez, you and me both, brother! (Not holding my breath).

    Regarding Meyer, I used a qualifier, it's possible he gets a call in 2014, but more likely that he has any kind of significant impact as an SP in 2015. The Twins generally proceed at a snail's pace in moving up prospects, with a prized prospect such as Meyer, they most likely would choose to protect their investment physically (don't you think there is still long institutional memory of what happened to Liriano in '06???) and also delay the arbitration clock as long as possible.
    Last edited by jokin; 11-30-2012 at 09:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    The more I think about it, the Twins should have recieved a throw in to the deal. Maybe a c proscpect in a ball or a reliever, or lambardozzi or something as Span is a bargain at 21 million for 3 years compared to what Bourn will cost when he signs. Meyer is a great prospect and does a great job headlining the deal but he is still in A ball and we should be able to get something else to mitigate that risk so we still end up with some value should Meyer flop.
    Brandon, I concur, see my quiz post above for more evidence.
    Last edited by jokin; 11-30-2012 at 09:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    The more I think about it, the Twins should have recieved a throw in to the deal. Maybe a c proscpect in a ball or a reliever, or lambardozzi or something as Span is a bargain at 21 million for 3 years compared to what Bourn will cost when he signs. Meyer is a great prospect and does a great job headlining the deal but he is still in A ball and we should be able to get something else to mitigate that risk so we still end up with some value should Meyer flop.
    Throw-in = minor leaguer who became what the Twins received for Young, Hardy, or Liriano. It's quality not quantity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    The more I think about it, the Twins should have recieved a throw in to the deal. Maybe a c proscpect in a ball or a reliever, or lambardozzi or something as Span is a bargain at 21 million for 3 years compared to what Bourn will cost when he signs. Meyer is a great prospect and does a great job headlining the deal but he is still in A ball and we should be able to get something else to mitigate that risk so we still end up with some value should Meyer flop.
    Throw-in = minor leaguer who became what the Twins received for Young, Hardy, or Liriano. It's quality not quantity.
    Lombardozzi, while not great, would have been a throw-in better than anything the Twins have now in the MI.

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    Strasburg would have been better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    The more I think about it, the Twins should have recieved a throw in to the deal. Maybe a c proscpect in a ball or a reliever, or lambardozzi or something as Span is a bargain at 21 million for 3 years compared to what Bourn will cost when he signs. Meyer is a great prospect and does a great job headlining the deal but he is still in A ball and we should be able to get something else to mitigate that risk so we still end up with some value should Meyer flop.
    Throw-in = minor leaguer who became what the Twins received for Young, Hardy, or Liriano. It's quality not quantity.
    I'd point out that Liriano was the throw in prospect in the AJ trade... just saying. Yes, a throw in would have been nice, and I have no doubt that the Twins asked for one, but I'm guessing Meyer was the most the Nats would pay. Front line starting pitchers are not cheap. If they are still front liners by the time they get to AA, they are untradable. Meyer did pretty good in A+ and will likely be in AA at some point next year, so we got about as good as we can get. I'd have loved the throw in too, but it wasn't going to happen.

  19. #319
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    Throw ins?

    I think it's possible that Rizzo and Ryan have been talking for a long time.
    I think that Rizzo has wanted Span for awhile.
    I think it's possible that Terry Ryan has been asking for Meyer in return since the trade deadline for Span and Rizzo has been saying that's too much.
    I think it's possible that Ryan has been talking to a lot of clubs besides the Nats about Span but no team had risen to what Terry was asking.
    I think it's possible that after the Braves signed Upton... Rizzo called Ryan and said,.. Alright Terry... Damn it.. I'll give you Meyer and a trade was agreed upon.


    I do not believe that Upton signing with the Braves spurred Terry Ryan to call Rizzo in a panic and settle for this Meyer Kid before the meetings. That signing would be more likely to cause the Nats to come up and finish a deal.


    Therefore I believe asking for a throw in... Is ridiculous. But I could be wrong on all of these things that I believe.

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    Quality over Quantity

    Throw ins = pedro Hernandez and Eduardo Escobar types. Liriano might have been the 3rd player in the big trade but he was fairly well thought of except he was injury prone. If getting a Liriano type throw in downgraded Meyer to a lesser pitcher then I would be upset.

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