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Thread: Article: Twins trade Denard Span for Nationals' 2011 first round pick

  1. #141
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    Love the Trade. I love the idea of having a solid young team from 2014 thru 2020 with complete control of most of my young contracts. It beats piecing players together every year like the Twins have been doing for recent years. The Brewers built their team with Fielder; Weeks; Hart; Giardo; & Hardy; (young guys) and found gems like Braun in later draft. The Twins can form a very solid team in 2014 with young prospects and continue to build thru free agency because they will have the money to pay top level FA's in 2014; 2015 & 2016. Great Trade & Start to rebuilding Twins organization.

  2. #142
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    I also like the trade. It is a shot, but you win with pitching and the Twins do not have enough. Hope it works out, but room also has to be cleared for the outfielders on the way up. No saying if Hicks or Arcia or others can be better than Span, but this trade is the type the Twins should be making

  3. #143
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    The Cardinals are another organization who stays great thru the draft 1st. Twins are getting there. Twins also have some hidden Gems in minors who can become stars (M. Kepler; J. Palanco; N. Roberts; R. Jiminez; A. Walker; T. Harrison; Clement; and all those young pitchers have a chance to be special). Give the change in philosophy a chance.

  4. #144
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    Mark Sheldon, who is MLB.com's Reds beat writer (and used to be the Twins) wrote a bit about the trade. Basically, he's surprised that the Reds, who he thinks have arms that are closer to major-league ready, didn't make this move. He opines that the Twins must have really liked Meyer. It was an interesting though. His write-up is here:

    http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/2012/...nals-in-trade/

  5. #145
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstalker View Post
    Keith Law is more respected than Dave Cameron? I think that is probably true among people who don't understand sabermetrics as well. In the same way Souhan is probably more respected than Gleeman.
    I think sabermetrics would say that Dave Cameron is significantly overrated. And this is coming from someone that understands and uses sabermetrics a lot.
    +1

    Also Keith Law knows plenty about sabermetrics.... we aren't exactly talking about Joe Morgan here.
    I like Cameron and all, but I don't think he is even close to the end all be all on the subject, he puts a ton of personal bias into the majority of his articles, which is fine, but again like Kab says he is a over rated quite a bit.

  6. #146
    Wikipedia, mikeee? Really? Yeah, because that's such a bastion of gospel truth.

  7. #147
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    Sickels ranked Meyer #28 among his pitching prospects in 2012. Detroit, Chicago, and Cleveland did not have a single name on the list of 50 prospects. The only AL West prospect on his list is KC's Jake Odorizzi, rated slightly higher than Meyer.

  8. #148
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    You can see Meyer's college stats here:

    http://www.thebaseballcube.com/playe...P=alex-meyer-3

    His previous high innings total was 101, so perhaps he tired later this season in high-A. He was "shut down" at 129 innings, Strasburg-style. I like that he's already made progress with control -- hopefully the Twins can keep his K rate up.

    Here's a cool article about him and his pitches:

    http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp...milb&fext=.jsp

  9. #149
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    [QUOTE=jokin;65602]Inevitable yes, but this is what I was afraid of, the inevitable reprecussions from the media:

    . "
    Last edited by jokin; 11-29-2012 at 08:36 PM.

  10. #150
    I like the trade, but it seems that the Twins are still short about three pitchers for the starting rotation. I assume the Twins will be in the market for a decent Free Agent and a 3rd tier type but the names we hear in rumors are scary. Liriano and Pavano? Say it ain’t so!

    I am now beginning to wonder if Terry Ryan might be planning another trade and dump most of Morneau’s salary this season for a starter. That would mean Parmelee would play 1st and one of the two guys (Oswaldo Arcia and Aaron Hicks) that are expected to see major league action this year would earn a starting role in the outfield.
    Looks like next week will be interesting!

  11. #151
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Obviously this move was made with 2014+ in mind, and that is fine, especially since we took upside over "sure thing". But looking further into it, does this really hurt the Twins that much in 2013?

    Span no doubt is a good player, who the Twins will miss but his production it appears is entirely replaceable. On the defensive side of things, Revere is at least as good of an overall defensive player as Span at CF and there is a very good chance that he has significantly better range in the position (quite possibly top 2 or 3 in all of baseball) Obviously his arm is garbage, but in CF I think it is "hidden" a bit and his range more then makes up for it.

    Span certainly had a solid bat, but I don't think we are going to miss it as much as people think. Even with his best season in 3 years Span still posted the 6th best OPS on the team behind Willingham, Mauer, Doumit, Morneau, and Plouffe. I think there is a very good chance all 5 post higher then Span again in 2013. Parmelee should be able to post a higher OPS as well, if he didn't I would be pretty disappointed/surprised. Some may argue that OPS isn't an end all be all and that since Span was a leadoff hitter OBP mattered more. Span finished 4th on the team behind Mauer, Willingham and Jamey Carroll (which is surprising). In addition he was only 9 points higher then both Morneau and Revere. A healthy Morneau should out produce that in 2013, while I actually think Revere regresses a bit. She you are looking at what would be the 5th best OBP guy on your team having to be replaced. IMO in an offensive standpoint Parmelee should be able to come close to that as well.

    In regards to speed, Span had it no doubt, but for every 2 steals he had it seems like he had one pick off. Revere is a better base runner no doubt, but overall the Twins will be hurt a bit on the "speed" category until a guy like Hicks comes up. Good news for the Twins is they didn't exactly run a whole lot anyways.

    All this isn't even factoring in that Hicks could very well be up sometime in 2012 and ultimately be a better fielder, hitter (especially in the power category) and runner then Span.

    So at the end of the day, while strengthening the team in the mid to long term I don't think it hurts the team much in the short term. Revere in CF is an upgrade defensively and it allows to get Parmelee a shot at playing every day. Additionally it makes Hicks and Arcia's path to the majors much easier.

    Pretty solid move and great timing by Ryan IMO as Spans value was unlikely to get any higher.

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kab21 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstalker View Post
    Keith Law is more respected than Dave Cameron? I think that is probably true among people who don't understand sabermetrics as well. In the same way Souhan is probably more respected than Gleeman.
    I think sabermetrics would say that Dave Cameron is significantly overrated. And this is coming from someone that understands and uses sabermetrics a lot.
    +1

    Also Keith Law knows plenty about sabermetrics.... we aren't exactly talking about Joe Morgan here.
    I like Cameron and all, but I don't think he is even close to the end all be all on the subject, he puts a ton of personal bias into the majority of his articles, which is fine, but again like Kab says he is a over rated quite a bit.
    Im surprised KLAW liked the trade from the Twins perspective. Normally he isnt to high on the Twins in general. He definitely is a great scout.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdwatcher View Post
    Sickels ranked Meyer #28 among his pitching prospects in 2012. Detroit, Chicago, and Cleveland did not have a single name on the list of 50 prospects. The only AL West prospect on his list is KC's Jake Odorizzi, rated slightly higher than Meyer.
    Well that is some good news!

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoCryingInBaseball View Post
    I like the trade, but it seems that the Twins are still short about three pitchers for the starting rotation. I assume the Twins will be in the market for a decent Free Agent and a 3rd tier type but the names we hear in rumors are scary. Liriano and Pavano? Say it ain’t so!

    I am now beginning to wonder if Terry Ryan might be planning another trade and dump most of Morneau’s salary this season for a starter. That would mean Parmelee would play 1st and one of the two guys (Oswaldo Arcia and Aaron Hicks) that are expected to see major league action this year would earn a starting role in the outfield.
    Looks like next week will be interesting!
    Keep in mind its still very early in the off-season, no real 1st or 2nd tier pitchers have even been signed yet, and really there hasn't been a ton of chatter out yet anyways. Has there been any real rumors yet about Grienke, Sanchez, Jackson, Marcum? I don't recall seeing any.

    I'd prefer the Twins sign 3 solid pitchers or trade for them this off-season, but even if they get two they still at least look better then last year. It just depends on who the two are of course.

    I still think you can at the end of the day count on at least Gibson and Diamond next year, with one of Hendriks/DeDuno/Walters sticking around as a #5 as well.

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    That and it insures the club continues marching towards its inexorable drop to a $65M payroll in 2014, which sadly appears to be the club's prime imperative at this point.
    Yeah, that simply isn't true nor will you provide one shred of evidence stating such.
    There is no need to provide any more shreds of evidence, it's already ubiquitously abundant, from the Twins own mouths and actions.
    Trying not to violate policy here. One trade of a player does not make for a salary dump. No FA signings when there have not yet been any significant FA signings does not mean the Twins are not going to spend any money. So what kind of thought process leads to jokin's statement?

  16. #156
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    That and it insures the club continues marching towards its inexorable drop to a $65M payroll in 2014, which sadly appears to be the club's prime imperative at this point.
    Yeah, that simply isn't true nor will you provide one shred of evidence stating such.
    There is no need to provide any more shreds of evidence, it's already ubiquitously abundant, from the Twins own mouths and actions.
    Trying not to violate policy here. One trade of a player does not make for a salary dump. No FA signings when there have not yet been any significant FA signings does not mean the Twins are not going to spend any money. So what kind of thought process leads to jokin's statement?
    Its not even worth responding to him. I got reprimanded earlier for pointing out his "shenanigans" (After he went and cried to the site owners lol) Clearly the Twins dumping an effective player who was scheduled to make $5 million is "salary dumping" plain and simple meanwhile they hold onto Willingham, Mauer and Morneau who are scheduled to make about 50 million in 2013.

    Is there an ignore feature on this site? Serious question.

  17. #157
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Is there an ignore feature on this site? Serious question.
    No, but I've thought about looking into it, if only for my own sanity.

  18. #158
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Steve Lein's Avatar
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    Hate that they had to deal one of my favorite's in Denard Span, but I'm glad he went to a team with colors where I can still get away with wearing my "Let's Get Denarded" T-shirt, and oh, I love the trade for 2 reasons.

    1) Twins were never going to spend the money on pitching or deal the prospects that they needed to in order to right the ship in 1 year, and
    2) This is the exact type of pitcher (even if it's only "potential" at this point) they need to acquire, one with top of the rotation stuff.

    If you wanted pitching that would contribute this year, you weren't going to get a top of the rotation guy for Span. You were going to get a #3 ceiling pitcher. Personally, I think the Twins have plenty of #3-#5 type's already. It would have taken Span+one of their top prospects, and probably another MLB-er to get a #1 or #2, and whatever money they had to pay him.

    Meyer has risk, but he's got everything else the Twins currently don't in a pitcher. This is a good thing.

    As a final note, I don't think it's out of the question for a 23-year-old pitcher with his stuff to move quickly through the minors if he's on. Let's hope he's on.

  19. #159
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    2015 at the earliest...so that's what we are shooting for...

  20. #160
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    It's not what the Twins loss, but waht did they gain in the next 4 years? Nothing!

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