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Thread: SI: Twins Winter Report Card is a B-

  1. #21
    Senior Member Triple-A Steve Lein's Avatar
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    Depends on how you look at it.

    If we're talking for 2013, it's a D+ at best. They got worse for 2013 by losing Span, Revere, Baker, Pavano, etc..., thus even a C-grade is too high if we call that "average". Worley is a good addition, though that doesn't offset the other loses, and Pelfrey/Correia don't improve a single thing in the rotation in my opinion. More potential innings of poor-level pitching doesn't strike me as the improvement Terry Ryan is spinning it as.

    If we're talking organizationally, I might give them as high as a B. They brought in some SP prospects who are more highly regarded than any others they had, so they improved a weakness with a strength. But the moves still weren't blockbuster-organization-transforming trades, so an A is out of the question.
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  2. #22
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    Personally, I'd grade this offseason a C-.

    For 2013, it's a D-/F. We've downgraded OF defense and our offense took a hit losing #1 and #2 batters. Pitching is a bunch of question marks, no certain quality in any starter we have. No #1s, no #2s.

    For 2014, there is POTENTIAL to have May and Meyer come up at some point and have at least one be worthwhile in that time. So C+ for 2014

    For 2015 and beyond, maybe a B or higher if May and Meyer both turn out and Worley is still with us and performing like many think he will

    Worley is still a big question mark. Hasn't pitched more than 135 innings in a season yet, had some injury issues, not sure I can say he's a #3 guy. He's still a big question mark
    Last edited by ThePuck; 01-17-2013 at 12:21 PM.

  3. #23
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Right now, C if they stand pat. B- if they pick up Saunders.

  4. #24
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    So according to SI:

    PRO
    Nice return on the trades

    CON
    The pitching additions were only rotation filler
    The middle infield is still a disaster


    Wow, I wish I had SI as my teacher back in high school. Who can complain about a grading curve where a 33% is a B-!

  5. #25
    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    A "D" at best right now, based on Worley and some hope that at least one of the two minor league pitchers will someday become an effective starter. If they hit on one of the two, that'd be pretty good, but I'll worry about 2015 in 2015. I'm paying to watch the 2013 Twins in 2013, not the 2015 Twins.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    So according to SI:

    PRO
    Nice return on the trades

    CON
    The pitching additions were only rotation filler
    The middle infield is still a disaster


    Wow, I wish I had SI as my teacher back in high school. Who can complain about a grading curve where a 33% is a B-!
    Not only that, but they seem to not even take into account how losing the #1 and #2 batters last year will hurt the team this year...or they gloss over it at best.

  7. #27
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    I would give the Twins a B for the offseason although 2013 looks pretty depressing.

    The good:
    Two great trades from a strength that open doors for Parmelee, Hicks and Arcia next season. The Twins did lose some proven talent but they had to find a way to get Hicks and Arcia into the lineup at some point in 2013. Quit crying about Revere and Span.
    One of those trades brought in a potentially average pitcher that will be cheap for a long time.
    Some are critical that the Twins haven't been more aggressive in FA but they also didn't overreact and significantly overpay for declining average talent.
    Pelfrey was a solid pickup

    The bad:
    While they didn't overpay they didn't really add any potentially tradeable assets in FA. There have been several RP'ers that signed 2 yr contracts for reasonable amounts. With a deeper pen then guys like Perkins and Burton are easier to trade.

    Correia is completely unimpressive.

    No effort was spent looking at MI'ers based on the rumors out there. It seems they are okay with the mess they have.

    What's left? I'm still hoping that the Twins go hard after either of the two Cubans. You can't divert unspent money into the overslot picks or int'l FA's. The two Cubans however are not subject to those restrictions.

    Maybe they get a guy like Saunders or Marcum which would add depth to a still shaky rotation.

  8. #28
    Senior Member All-Star Ultima Ratio's Avatar
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    Actual moves: D

    Public relations (integrity): F
    Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains.

  9. #29
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    Young power arms are very difficult to acquire. Acquiring two is a credit to Ryan and worthy of a good grade.

    While it makes sense for a team with so little talent to put an eye towards the future, it doesn't make sense to do it halfway. Why not trade off some decline phase assets? They could have done so in July. Why not spend money on some veterans that can be flipped at the trade deadline? Though he was an all star in 2011, it is hard to imagine Correia having any value at the trade deadline 2013. Why sign him? Saunders or Marcum make much more sense.

    With every decision, the Twins need to have the future in mind. They entered the offseason with that mindset. I am not sure what the mindset is now.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    I would give a B. Cleared out players for a decent return, to enable young outfielders to perform at the major league level. Have more swing and miss starters in the chain than the Twins that I can remember ever had. Cleared payroll space to enable the Twins to fill the holes when they are ready to compete in 2014 - 2015.

  11. #31
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    The best middle market organization in baseball, right now, is the St Louis Cardinals. One of their fundamental principles is to avoid having to invest resources into the free agent market. They recognize that free agency is the least cost-effective, and riskiest, way to use your resources. I think that the Twins are wise to avoid pouring $$ into free agents, and we will have to take our lumps for awhile. Trading for prospects suggests that Ryan is taking this approach, and he will have to take the heat for a couple of years, and rely on his scouts and organization to build a new foundation for consistent competitiveness. So give him a B for steering this course in the off season, and hope that his organization still knows how to put together a deep group of prospects to maintain a competitive team.

  12. #32
    Senior Member Triple-A
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    I'm with SI and the B-
    Great Trades for Meyers & Mays (future #1 & #3 respectively) B+

    The potential rotation of:
    Diamond 10+ Wins - Worley 10+ Wins - Pelfrey 10+ Wins - Harden 10+ Wins - Corriea 10+ Wins -
    Each of these guys has won (at least) 10 games before in a season and there is nothing concrete that says they can't again.
    Throw in call up spot starts for these 2 & Gipson 5+ Wins - Henriks 5+ Wins & Relievers 10+ Wins
    The next thing you know we are flirting with .500 and we are last years White Sox. History nor Sabers didn't have the A's winning the West last year either. Don't Be That Band Wagon Fan

  13. #33
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    I also say lets give these young guys some MLB action so they get the kinks out this year and become the prospects we once envisioned. 2014 can be a bright year. Hicks can be a star / Arcia can be a star / Diamond can be a very good pitcher / Benson could be a very good player / Plouffe could be a consistent 25+ HR guy / Parmelee could be a 25+ HR guy / I'm going to take my lumps because I think SI knows better than us

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big City View Post
    Yes, I read the entire thread and not once did you give your own grade to the offseason moves (which was kind of the point of the thread). I like how you criticize everyone else's grades on the offseason but you haven't sacked up and posted your own evaluation. Also, you didn't answer my other question, "If it was ownership's directive for the Twins to have a payroll of $65 million, then shouldn't these moves be considered an A...?"
    Hasnt there been many reports this off season that the Twins payroll would return to the 100 million dollar mark?

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by beckmt View Post
    I would give a B. Cleared out players for a decent return, to enable young outfielders to perform at the major league level. Have more swing and miss starters in the chain than the Twins that I can remember ever had. Cleared payroll space to enable the Twins to fill the holes when they are ready to compete in 2014 - 2015.
    How will the twins be ready to compete in 2014-2015? please explain this to me.

  16. #36
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer FrodaddyG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightfoot789 View Post
    Don't Be That Band Wagon Fan
    Because the delusional homer fan is preferable?

  17. #37
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    I'd give them a B+


    My reasoning is that:

    1) They took a position of strength (centerfield) and used it to fill some of their pitching holes for this year and the future. Great moves!!

    2) They kept their options open. So many of the posters here wanted the Twins to get rid of every tradable asset. Now if the Twins are in contention at the trade deadline – and they can be if the middle of the order – Willingham, Morneau, Mauer, hit like they are capable of, and some of the additions – Pelfrey, Harden, Worsley – pitch like they have in the past. If they’re not in contention at the trade deadline, they can make trades when the players value is the highest instead of giving them away in the off season. Then bring up the young guys to finish out the season.

    Hopefully the Twins will surprise us but if not we can follow the young players in August and September.

  18. #38
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightfoot789 View Post
    Don't Be That Band Wagon Fan
    You're talking to a bunch of people who post on a Twins site after back-to-back 90+ loss seasons. I don't think "bandwagon fan" is even in the conversation.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Lein View Post
    Depends on how you look at it.

    If we're talking for 2013, it's a D+ at best. They got worse for 2013 by losing Span, Revere, Baker, Pavano, etc..., thus even a C-grade is too high if we call that "average". Worley is a good addition, though that doesn't offset the other loses, and Pelfrey/Correia don't improve a single thing in the rotation in my opinion. More potential innings of poor-level pitching doesn't strike me as the improvement Terry Ryan is spinning it as.
    See, this is where I disagree with you. I think we're forgetting just how awful last years pitching staff was. Pelfrey/Correia is a huge improvement. Last year we gave 88 starts and about 457ip to several pitchers (Blackburn, Marquis, Pavano, Walters, Duensing, Vasquez, Swarzak and Liriano) who combined for nearly a negative 8 WAR in those starts.

    If Correia puts up a 2010 Blackburn line (26 starts, 75 ERA+, 160ip, -0.5 WAR, 14 QS), Pelfrey just mimics his 2011 season (33 starts, 78 ERA+, 190ip, 0.0 WAR, 15 QS) and Worley puts up a modest season (29 starts, 99 ERA+, 180 ip, 1.0 WAR, 15 QS), that covers all 88 starts, takes nearly75 innings from the bullpen and adds about 8.5 WAR to the pitching staff. And that's not asking for a ton from the new guys.

    I didn't love the Correia signing but I was ok with the Pelfrey and Harden deals. Saunders would be a nice addition. But I think we're ignoring how much of an improvement we've gotten just from getting professional starts. I'm also very interested in how Hendriks pitches for us next year. He was just abysmal last year (16 starts, 73 ERA+, 85.1ip, -1.2 WAR, 5 QS).

  20. #40
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
    If Correia puts up a 2010 Blackburn line (26 starts, 75 ERA+, 160ip, -0.5 WAR, 14 QS), Pelfrey just mimics his 2011 season (33 starts, 78 ERA+, 190ip, 0.0 WAR, 15 QS) and Worley puts up a modest season (29 starts, 99 ERA+, 180 ip, 1.0 WAR, 15 QS), that covers all 88 starts, takes nearly75 innings from the bullpen and adds about 8.5 WAR to the pitching staff. And that's not asking for a ton from the new guys.
    Ell Oh Ell.

    People forget just how awful the back end of the 2012 was for most of the season. I mean, it was historically awful. It will require another complete collapse of the entire rotation to repeat those numbers in 2013.

    Of course, this rotation also has to offset the loss of Revere and Span, which is no small order (unless Parmelee comes out raking and Morneau returns to form, which basically offsets the loss).

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