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Thread: Team Control and Hicks

  1. #41
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Are the posters who would trade a year of control over two weeks of play, in an otherwise meaningless season, actually serious? Honest question.

    That seems to be a bit steep for a guy who's never had a AAA PA.

  2. #42
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    If he is the best OFer on the 40 man, he should be up, yes. I'm 100% serious about trading 2 weeks (and, does anyone think the Twins will send him down for 2 weeks?) this year for a year of not paying him what he is worth. Team control is about money, and this team has no, none, notta, commitments in 3 years other than Mauer.
    Lighten up Francis....

  3. #43
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    No, team control isn't simply about money, it's about guaranteeing that you can keep your best young players on the team for an additional year without risk of them choosing to go elsewhere.

    Can you guarantee right now that Hicks will sign an extension to stay in Minnesota when the time comes?
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  4. #44
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    If he is the best OFer on the 40 man, he should be up, yes. I'm 100% serious about trading 2 weeks (and, does anyone think the Twins will send him down for 2 weeks?) this year for a year of not paying him what he is worth. Team control is about money, and this team has no, none, notta, commitments in 3 years other than Mauer.
    Well that sounds very grand and honourable and all but it's outright foolish to relinquish that control for so little. I'd suggest being the best OFer out of ST on this team isn't all that big an accomplishment.

    No I don't belive they will keep him down for only 2 weeks and that's perfectly OK considering how this year is looking. Paying him what he's worth? You have no idea what he's worth at this point and if he turns out to be a guy you extend, what's the harm in having an extra year to do that?

  5. #45
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    The harm is the lack of ticket sales this year and next year. The harm is not trying to put the best team on the field. The harm is to those people paying good money to watch this team, and not having the best players up.*

    *this is all assuming he is the best option, of course.
    Lighten up Francis....

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    No, team control isn't simply about money, it's about guaranteeing that you can keep your best young players on the team for an additional year without risk of them choosing to go elsewhere.

    Can you guarantee right now that Hicks will sign an extension to stay in Minnesota when the time comes?
    No, I cannot. But if they want to, they'll find a way. But fine, I'll concede that point, that it is only 80% about money.
    Lighten up Francis....

  7. #47
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    The harm is to those people paying good money to watch this team.
    This team is going to be harmful to watch with or without Hicks for 2 months. I'd rather watch him for an extra year when the team might actually be competitive.

  8. #48
    Senior Member All-Star Boom Boom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    No, team control isn't simply about money, it's about guaranteeing that you can keep your best young players on the team for an additional year without risk of them choosing to go elsewhere.

    Can you guarantee right now that Hicks will sign an extension to stay in Minnesota when the time comes?
    No. I also can't guarantee that the Twins will want to sign Hicks to an extension.

  9. #49
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    Finessing service time for super 2 is all about money. An extra year of control is a different matter.

    It will be interesting to see how they handle Gibson. If he is good in spring training no reason not to start in the big league rotation. Worry about shutting him down later if he makes it that far. Pretty sure this won't end up as significant as Stasburg or Medlen. He only has so many innings -in might as well use them in the bigs instead of AAA.

  10. #50
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Nygaard View Post
    To get a full year of service time a player needs to spend 172 days out of the 183 days of the season in the big leagues. Those numbers are pretty easy to figure and the trade off - 12 days in the minors or an extra year of team control - is also quite easy to see. Teams and players know well in advance how that is going to shake out and it's really no surprise teams often keep players down to start the year.

    Avoiding the Super-2 status is much trickier. That's based on the service time of the top percentage of players to miss arbitration, so there is a lot of guesswork involved and you could go through the work and guess wrong.

    I guess my point is that with Hicks, having not played any AAA, to give him time because he could use it and with Gibson, who is on a limit anyway, to put him on Rochester's DL to start the year. I would call them up when I think they're ready and/or there is a need as long as it's not in the first two weeks of the season. I wouldn't try to time their arbitration clocks, though, because that's less certain.

    This is exactly right although they could keep him on an innings-limit in Rochester for awhile.

  11. #51
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    How? If you plan for this, why can't Gibson pitch 3-4 innings, and the stiff you were going to have be your number 5 pitcher pitch the second half of the game? How is 3-4 good innings from Gibson, followed by 3-4 innings from the long reliever or whatever, bad for the bullpen?

    Why use Gibson's innings in the minors, where they do the Twins no good?
    I know that you watch baseball and I think even you realize that a team isn't going to pull an effective starter routinely after throwing 3-4 innings. Plus the alternative is probably Hendriks so it's not like we're diving into the Jason Miller/Mike Smith pile at the beginning of the season.

  12. #52
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    True, a team won't, but why not? Isn't 3 innings from Gibson and 5 from Hendriks a good plan? Better than using 3 or 4 relievers after Hendriks starts?

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mchans24 View Post
    Keep them down for the first two weeks to gains a year. There is really not even an argument here. It just makes good business sense. The only way I see you bringing Hicks up to start the year is if he hits .600 with five bombs and 15 stolen bases in spring training. The guy has never played a AAA game!!
    Well said. People need to take a step back and think reasonably. 4 weeks of service in what will likely be a down year vs a full year when the player would be in their prime? I do not see how this is a legit discussion. Also, "screwing players out of pay raises"? Okeydoke. I am sorry if this hurts but baseball is a business and the long-term health of you company is a kind of important.

  14. #54
    Senior Member All-Star Badsmerf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    True, a team won't, but why not? Isn't 3 innings from Gibson and 5 from Hendriks a good plan? Better than using 3 or 4 relievers after Hendriks starts?
    That would never happen. The Twins have enough pitchers right now to let Gibson take it easy and build into the season. They will not bring him up if he can only pitch 4 innings.... Gardy would have a fit, and rightfully so since it would destroy the pitching staff. Part of the reason they got as many arms as they did, IMO, is so they can leave Gibson down to start the year. Plus, I'm sure they want to see him have some success in AAA. If they would have gone out and signed Grienke, I bet things would have been different this offseason.
    Do or do not. There is no try.

  15. #55
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    If Hendriks starts and goes 5 innings, they need 1-5 relievers. If Gibson starts and goes three or four, and Hendriks goes four or five, they need less out of the pen. How does that plan ruin the pitching staff? If Hendriks starts and goes 4 or 5 ans Gibson goes three, how does that ruin the pitching staff?

    If Gibson is ready to pitch, are not his innings better used in the majors?

  16. #56
    Twins Moderator All-Star diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    I I think everyone would be very happy if Hicks qualified as a Super 2. That would mean he was way to good in spring training to be sent down, and continued to play well.
    If he starts the year in MIN and never looks back, he won't be a super 2...

  17. #57
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    I can understand why people would advocate for bringing the top 25 north, but I'm firmly entrenched with the thought that this is old-world thinking in this case. If Hicks was one of a few pieces needed to contend, it makes perfect sense. The Twins are rebuilding, so let's let them rebuild for the future, and keep Hicks as long as possible. I'm on board with Terry building for the future, and this would be a move for the future [puts blinders on face]. If the Twins are contending in August, and Hicks had a great season, I'll admit I was wrong.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Nygaard View Post
    Some well-known examples of guys who spent time in the minors unnecessarily: Evan Longoria (who fell two days short of a year of service time), David Price (eight days short) and Matt Wieters (who spent two months in the minors to put off arbitration by a year).

    One example of a player that could have spent two weeks in the minors and had free agency (and a $23 million year) pushed back a year: Joe Mauer.
    Brewers did it with Hardy too...his last year with them...he got sent down for just enough time that he had 2 years left till free agency instead of one. Made him more attractive for trade.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    If Hendriks starts and goes 5 innings, they need 1-5 relievers. If Gibson starts and goes three or four, and Hendriks goes four or five, they need less out of the pen. How does that plan ruin the pitching staff? If Hendriks starts and goes 4 or 5 ans Gibson goes three, how does that ruin the pitching staff?

    If Gibson is ready to pitch, are not his innings better used in the majors?
    Worst. Bit. Ever.

  20. #60
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrodaddyG View Post
    Worst. Bit. Ever.
    I see no uses of the word slappy, nor do I see any Megadeth t-shirts.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

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