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Thread: Source: Twins have 1 yr offer to Saunders; never made offer to Marcum

  1. #21
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe A. Preusser View Post
    I couldn't disagree more. If we have a good team and are willing to pay market value, we can attract big name free agents. A few might shy away because of the reduced capacity for endorsements, but all else being equal, most will come play here. Right now we are not competitive and aren't willing to pay top dollar because of it, so they are looking elsewhere. It's as simple as that.
    That would have to mean you were never competitive or you have never offered market value. Name someone who has ever come? Players view the cold weather as a negative. History as everyone tells me doesn't lie. That's the Sabermetrics of this situation.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbknudson View Post
    I have no trouble believing that Minnesota is not considered an attractive market for free agents, and the only way to get them is to seriously overpay (of which I am not in favor). Let's not forget what a member of Ricky Rubio's family said when he was playing over in Europe and the thinking was he was lobbying for a trade to an east coast team: "Bottom line, why would Rubio go to Minnesota?"

    Personally, I love living here, and I'm going to be sad to leave it when I move in February, but I was also born and raised here. As far as sheer glamour, for those who weren't, we can't top New York, LA, Chicago, etc. That's not to diss Minnesota; that's to recognize how we are often perceived by outsiders (rightly or wrongly).
    That's all I'm saying - I Love MN and my Twins
    That's not to diss Minnesota; that's to recognize how we are often perceived by outsiders (rightly or wrongly).[/QUOTE]

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Knotholemike View Post
    BTB, any "major" free agent will avoid the frozen tundra of Minnesota if at all possible. This is reality. Deal with it. It would take a very special free agent to accept a deal with the Twins. Take that to your ice fishing house and smoke it.
    Not sure I agree for the following reasons...
    If my memory serves me correctly, major league baseball is played in the summertime. I also think players aren't required to live in Minnesota even during the season. During the summer, Minnesota is actually a rather lovely place, particularly areas north of the Twin Cities. I hear the hunting and fishing is pretty good. Pardon me if I've stated anything particularly obvious.

  4. #24
    Senior Member All-Star LaBombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightfoot789 View Post
    That would have to mean you were never competitive or you have never offered market value. Name someone who has ever come? Players view the cold weather as a negative. History as everyone tells me doesn't lie. That's the Sabermetrics of this situation.
    If it makes it easier for you to stomach the Twins' offseason in free agency to believe that players are giving up millions to avoid a half dozen April games that might be 5 degrees cool than Detroit or Chicago or other northern cities, go for it.

    By the way, how much of a premium are teams like Texas paying to have free agents come to play in 2+ months of hellish heat, as opposed to a handful of cold games?
    Last edited by LaBombo; 01-26-2013 at 12:28 AM.

  5. #25
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnydakota View Post
    Why? Heading into the off season you thought , if only we could get Saunders and Correia we could make a run at the divisional title?
    No we all knew we needed 2 front of the rotation starters, and what did we get? a big pile of steaming horse ploop and Ryan cuts more payroll... same ole song and dance...
    We also got Pelfrey, Worley, May, Meyer, Harden.... Not all will help immediately but the Twins did bring in pitching depth currently, and some real talent for the future.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightfoot789 View Post
    That would have to mean you were never competitive or you have never offered market value. Name someone who has ever come? Players view the cold weather as a negative. History as everyone tells me doesn't lie. That's the Sabermetrics of this situation.
    What cold weather? The games are played from April to October, with temperatures very much the same as any other city. True, there aren't very many truly "hot" and humid days, but that is normally considered a "good" thing. Winter? Players generally don't live in the same place year-round anyway--often seeking states that have low or zero state income taxes. This cold weather excuse just doesn't cut it for baseball.

  7. #27
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    OK. I am flabbergasted. If the Twins had simply made the Revere traded even for Worley alone, signed Baker to the same incentive-laded deal, and signed Marcum to the same incentive-laden deal while still throwing the flyer at Harden, it would have been a big ass improvement over what actually occurred. Baker at 5.5 million plus 1.5 million and Marcum at 4/4 would mean 15 million HOPEFULLY for one year and some leverage in resigning. That's better than 8.5 million now for Correia and Pelfrey, plus making that $13 million automatically anyway. Marcum is OBVIOUSLY a lower health risk and is OBVIOUSLY a higher upside than Pelfrey. And then it's Baker vs. Correia . . . .

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    OK. I am flabbergasted. If the Twins had simply made the Revere traded even for Worley alone, signed Baker to the same incentive-laded deal, and signed Marcum to the same incentive-laden deal while still throwing the flyer at Harden, it would have been a big ass improvement over what actually occurred. Baker at 5.5 million plus 1.5 million and Marcum at 4/4 would mean 15 million HOPEFULLY for one year and some leverage in resigning. That's better than 8.5 million now for Correia and Pelfrey, plus making that $13 million automatically anyway. Marcum is OBVIOUSLY a lower health risk and is OBVIOUSLY a higher upside than Pelfrey. And then it's Baker vs. Correia . . . .
    But Ryan believed he had the leverage and that Baker owed the Twins--he was wrong. That setback coupled with the non-acceptance of any other offer made (though we can't say for sure that there were any offers, only guess) a more aggressive offer was made to KC. I don't believe that any of the "top FA pitchers this year" were ever on his radar.

  9. #29
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    Ryan just wants to show the fans who is boss, Dumb Twins fans.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by howeda7 View Post
    Doogies the 'best local reporter' in the same way that Saunders would be the Twins 'ace'.
    Early morning LOL TD highlight of the day.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    OK. I am flabbergasted. If the Twins had simply made the Revere traded even for Worley alone, signed Baker to the same incentive-laded deal, and signed Marcum to the same incentive-laden deal while still throwing the flyer at Harden, it would have been a big ass improvement over what actually occurred. Baker at 5.5 million plus 1.5 million and Marcum at 4/4 would mean 15 million HOPEFULLY for one year and some leverage in resigning. That's better than 8.5 million now for Correia and Pelfrey, plus making that $13 million automatically anyway. Marcum is OBVIOUSLY a lower health risk and is OBVIOUSLY a higher upside than Pelfrey. And then it's Baker vs. Correia . . . .
    In retrospect, the Baker fiasco started the Def-con 5 All Hands On Deck Panic Mode to sign a Correia, the numbers certainly fit, and so does the mis-evaluation of "a pretty darn good pitcher" (Not...). How do you then follow that up a few days later and throw a one-year deal at a TJ pitcher and not get a team option on the 2nd year, you know, the year when he most likely would be effective? It appears that Ryan got completely pwned on both deals.

    How else but panic-mode do you explain how they missed this badly on Marcum? I am severely dissenting on the notion floated recently on TD that Ryan is still a sharp operator. He certainly hasn't acquitted himself very well with any distinction concerning addressing the starting pitching this offseason
    Last edited by jokin; 01-26-2013 at 05:44 AM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    We also got Pelfrey, Worley, May, Meyer, Harden.... Not all will help immediately but the Twins did bring in pitching depth currently, and some real talent for the future.
    Actually, at least 4 out of 5 won't "help immediately". It's highly likely one or more may never "help" in any difference-making way. Once again, the Twins have placed themselves in a position with only a pallid "Plan A" in place, wherein virtually every variable has to come up "Aces", merely for the team to have a shot at mediocrity.

  13. #33
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightfoot789 View Post
    That would have to mean you were never competitive or you have never offered market value. Name someone who has ever come? Players view the cold weather as a negative. History as everyone tells me doesn't lie. That's the Sabermetrics of this situation.
    My god man, some of this crap is getting borderline certifiable. Is this a plea for help of some kind?

  14. #34
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightfoot789 View Post
    That would have to mean you were never competitive or you have never offered market value. Name someone who has ever come? Players view the cold weather as a negative. History as everyone tells me doesn't lie. That's the Sabermetrics of this situation.
    Name someone who's ever turned down top dollar because he was afraid he was going to freeze his nuts off during a couple of games....in April.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by DelawareTwinsFan View Post
    During the summer, Minnesota is actually a rather lovely place, particularly areas north of the Twin Cities. I hear the hunting and fishing is pretty good. Pardon me if I've stated anything particularly obvious.
    Shhh....Don't let anyone else know. This is our little secret. Why would anyone want to spoil it? Having lived all over the country, I can't think of places that offer what Minnesota has to offer. It is just reality that a lot of pro athletes and their agents want the media attention and endorsements of a big market. The perception is that Minnesota is just fly-over country. The Twins would have to overpay for top free agents which they smartly will not do.

  16. #36
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    One of the advantages of being a free agent is you have at least some choice where you end up playing. It is fine to speculate on what it would take to lure certain free agents to play in Minnesota, but I suspect it depends on the free agent. Some would like to come to Minnesota "all other things being equal" some would not. Saying you have to "overpay" to lure top free agents to Minnesota, may be true in some cases, but probably isn't universally true.

    What I think is true, is that Ryan makes his own evaluations, based on what his scouts and other advisors tell him. Clearly, his evaluations don't always dovetail with what many experts and bloggers believe. I don't believe he was willing to give some of the so called medium tier free agents what other GM's were willing to give, and I expect that in a few cases he may of made competitive offers and those free agents decided to take a similar offer elsewhere.

    I also don't believe that Twins don't leak much information about contract offers and such to the media. Such leaks occur in other at other points, such as agents or maybe personnel in other organizations. How accurate that type of information is, depends on what you want to believe, in some cases.

    Personally, I think a lot of these guys will turn out to be "overpaid" in the sense that their performance will not come very close to matching their cost, and there will have been "bargains" out of this group of free agents who will perform quite well for the money paid. Trying to perdict which will be which, which many are doing, isn't likely to be very accurate. I just hope Ryan managed to get a "bargain" or 2.

  17. #37
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Obviously people have preferences where they want to play, that's why agents bargain for things like limited no-trade clauses.

    One local boy the Twins missed out on was Edwin Jackson, he was born in Neu-Ulm.

  18. #38
    What is really sad is that when I saw this post, I thought: "Saunders might be a Twin??? That's great!" And 2 months ago, the thought of Saunders being a Twin would have made me sick.... At least the FO is good at lowering our expectations.

  19. #39
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    I don't understand how this discussion can be presented in black and white. The signing of a Free Agent is Grey every time. Every case is different.

    These guys spend their younger years under team control. If they want to play for another organization. They can't. They must wait for Free Agency. Once they reach Free Agency... The now have options that they didn't have before... They are all of sudden personally responsible for the decisions that will shape the remainder of their career. There is no black and white in this... It's only Grey... You can't say that Free Agents won't sign with Minnesota because Minnesota is a cow pasture compared to New York... And you can't say that Minnesota has a fair shot at all Free Agents. It's grey area and if Minnesota wants a Free Agent... They have to make it a good career decision for the player by either paying them more or presenting a situation where the player can advance his career.

    Each Free Agent is going to sign with a team that wants them and the team that makes sense for them.

    Dan Haren was reported to be a West Coast Guy being from California. He signed with an East Coast Team. I have no idea why... I'm guessing that the Washington offer was near the top of the offers financially and pitching well for a contender could lead to a bigger pay day next year. So the deal was right for him and he said goodbye to his beloved West Coast. Maybe he signs an extension with Washington going forward or next year he signs with Dodgers for 6 years and 100 Million. His next move will be a move that Haren feels is best for this career and if that means playing for Kansas City next year. That's what it means and only Dan Haren knows.

    Greinke was reported to suffer from a Social Anxiety Disorder. It has been argued that he would never sign with the gigantic Markets because the spotlight would turn him into a Tony Shalloub Monk character or something. What did he do... He Signed for 6 years smack dab in the middle of the Hollywood spotlight. Why did he do it? I don't know... I'm guessing that 6 Years and 147 Million was the best thing he could do for his career at this point.

    Does Minnesota have to overpay for Free Agents... Yes they do... Every team has to overpay for signing Free Agents... Can it be argued that the Dodgers had to overpay for Greinke... I'd say that they had to cuz Greinke sure got a boat load of money. Looks like an overpay to me.

    I'm guessing that Kevin Corriea was probably not happy with getting knocked out of the rotation in Pittsburgh. He was looking for a team where he could stick in the rotation because that would be best for his career. I think he labeled Minnesota has the best place for that. I think Pelfrey labeled Minnesota has a good match because he would have an opportunity to pitch and revive his career. Harden same thing. These are just guesses but they make sense to me at least.

    Marcum... Who knows... I really wanted the guy... Maybe Terry Ryan didn't... Maybe Terry Ryan wanted him but Marcum didn't want Minnesota. Who knows. 4 Million sure doesn't seem like much but I'm pretty sure that there was more that went into Marcum going to the Mets than I'm aware of...

    Throwing rocks at the Franchise because a player signed elsewhere will never make much sense to me. The Players have Freewill and all 30 organizations are trying hard to build an organization for success.

    It's incredibly easy for us to say we have 30 Million to spend... OK... I want him... him... him and her. Saying... There ya go... I fixed the Twins like you are walking through the supermarket loading canned goods into your cart and the canned goods have no choice but to go along with you.

    Even the Astros have a plan... I'm sure the Twins do as well. I don't know what the plan is and I don't think Mackey knows either and I don't think a single poster on Twinsdaily knows either. I'm bummed that we didn't get one of the perceived above average arms. I'm shocked that Marcum went for 4 million... I really am... I'm just saying that I don't have the details and there are always details.

    2013 is gonna be what 2013 is gonna be. Is it April yet?

  20. #40
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Throwing rocks at the Franchise because a player signed elsewhere will never make much sense to me. The Players have Freewill and all 30 organizations are trying hard to build an organization for success.
    For me, it's not about a single free agent. I would have been happy with anything from Greinke to Marcum. There were about ten decent options that ranged from very good (Greinke) to good (Sanchez) to mediocre (Jackson) to question marks with upside (Marcum).

    The problem is that Ryan didn't get any of them. With more pitching options on the market than I've seen since the mid-2000s, Ryan failed to get even a mediocre pitcher and instead relied entirely on gambles such as Correia (well below average once you factor in league disparity) and Harden (whose arm could fall off the next time he opens a car door a little too vigorously). No matter how you look at the situation, it's a fail.

    Which is really too bad. The Twins had a lot of money to spend and Ryan did an exemplary job with the Span and Revere trades. If he could have just done an "okay" job with the free agent market, I'd be pleased as punch going into this season. Instead, I want to scream.

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