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Thread: Mason: Correia expects to eat up innings for the Twins

  1. #81
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    And fans are irrational when they ignore the fact that players like Correia do have value. He's being paid less for two years of service to the Twins than Anibel Sanchez is getting for one year with the Tigers. Using a bunch of boring calculations, we see that Sanchez projects to be worth 4-6 More wins over that 2 year period than Correia. He's also getting paid 35 Million to Correia's 10.

    We also see that Sanchez is contracted for an additional 3 years where his downward trends are more likely to be catching up with him. He's a much bigger risk, and that's where guys like Correia have their value. They're not as flashy effective, but they do help good teams win. If the team has a functioning offense that can put up similar numbers to last year, Correia will put the team in a postion to win a very similar percentage of games Sanchez will for the Tigers, at much less cost.

    The annoying part of Correia's contract shouldn't be that he signed it, but that the flexibility it provided hasn't resulted in more signings.
    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    Do you think WAR is a real thing? I doubt you do. It's just a way of quickly outlining how much runs are worth on average. That varies from year to year, team to team. It's just a basic idea that helps shape what you feel paying any player is appropriate. They're paying 5 Mil per year to Correia to as you say, give them at best 1 win for next year. I'm sure the Team thinks he's got the potential to be worth more than 1 win, but let's just say they expect him to be worth 1. It still seems they have paid him appropriately, since nobody signs someone they expect to fail.
    But... But...

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    You have to evaluate who the player would have been replacing. And in Correia's case, it's a bunch of really bad players. Hell, the guy was worth .9 WAR last year even though he was tossed out of the rotation for a couple weeks.



    No. At this point all you're doing is whining. You aren't in a postion to hold the team to anything. You're angry because you don't like the direction and there's nothing you can do about it. You're certain you have better plans than the Twins, but for a cruel twist of fate you are working at an insurance company rather than the Twins front office. It's stupid to keep carrying on day after day about the same thing. Kevin Correia is going to pitch for the Twins. If he sucks he'll get cut. If he pitches like he has, he'll win some games for them. It's just that simple.
    ok so what else is there to talk about if not the players ?
    You want positive discussion , make positive acquitions...

  3. #83
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    OK. Feel free to keep banging your stick on the ground. I'm sure you'll eventually get your point across.
    If poorly constructed defenses of his signing weren't being made, the stick-banging wouldn't be required.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  4. #84
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    The best analogy I have thought of in respect to the matter is this:

    Let's pretend I need a gallon of milk, and I am going to give you $20 dollars and send you to the store. I tell you that I prefer the organic kind, but if it is too expensive when you get there, just a regular gallon will do. You return with a pint of regular milk, saying it was a better deal. You also pocket my change. Once I drink the pint in one day, I ask you to go get me more milk with the money I gave you, and you say you dont have it anymore. I'm left drinking water the rest of the week. Now if you would use that money to get me something to drink other than water, or buy me a present or something with, you know, MY money, I probably wouldnt be so angry. At least that way I am some kind of value with my own money that I gave you in the first place.

  5. #85
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    If poorly constructed defenses of his signing weren't being made, the stick-banging wouldn't be required.
    I say we shut the whole thing down. Sorry TD - LoganJones feels all opinions are meaningless. So....we all just agree to de-bookmark, have a beer, and go our separate ways then? I think that's his point. Nothing else is "rational" to borrow a term.

    Unless.....you see that he's stick-banging about stick-banging. And if stick-banging is meaningless then his stick banging about the stick-banging meaningless. Problem....solved?

  6. #86
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edavis0308 View Post
    The best analogy I have thought of in respect to the matter is this:
    You left out the part where you were constantly being assured that your regular milk was in fact organic, despite the evidence to the contrary.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    OK. Feel free to keep banging your stick on the ground. I'm sure you'll eventually get your point across.
    So pro-front office stick banging = effective
    Disappointment with the front office stick banging = ineffective

    Got it. That is one hard lesson to learn.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    his ERA+ for the past 3 years is 78. The 104 starts in question gave us an ERA+ of 69. 8.8% better in that regard, too.
    Thanks for the info...but you can see why people have issues with signing someone so very low below an ERA+ of 100.

  9. #89
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    how much runs are worth on average. That varies from... team to team.
    No it doesn't. What defines "replacement level" is an average across the entire league. The Twins could elavate the quality of their replacements by simply picking up guys on waivers and signing guys to minor league contracts for basically zero dollars. Would that be any better of a bargain than signing a 1 win player for $5m?

    You're right, I don't like WAR and I don't like constructing rosters based on past WAR but it happens to be more or less in line with how the market values free agents, that is roughly $5-7m for every Win.
    Last edited by Willihammer; 01-30-2013 at 04:29 PM.

  10. #90
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Unless.....you see that he's stick-banging about stick-banging. And if stick-banging is meaningless then his stick banging about the stick-banging meaningless. Problem....solved?
    Stick-banging
    ???
    Profit
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    I say we shut the whole thing down. Sorry TD - LoganJones feels all opinions are meaningless. So....we all just agree to de-bookmark, have a beer, and go our separate ways then? I think that's his point. Nothing else is "rational" to borrow a term.

    Unless.....you see that he's stick-banging about stick-banging. And if stick-banging is meaningless then his stick banging about the stick-banging meaningless. Problem....solved?
    Keep it up guys and Bachmann is going to spearpoint another effort to make stick banging illegal according to Minesota's constitiution.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    No. At this point all you're doing is whining. You aren't in a postion to hold the team to anything. You're angry because you don't like the direction and there's nothing you can do about it. You're certain you have better plans than the Twins, but for a cruel twist of fate you are working at an insurance company rather than the Twins front office.
    these kind of comments right here...wow...

  13. #93
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    In the last three years COMBINED, Correia's value was less than 5M. And that's a bit distorted when you figure that last year, his contract year, was worth 4M all by itself.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    these kind of comments right here...wow...
    Wow is a word I use to describe grown men whining like little children over a baseball team day in and day out without the slightest bit of self awareness. But, thanks to the kind work of people who showed me how to manage the ignore feature, I don't need to bother with it.

  15. #95
    Pixel Monkey MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    Wow is a word I use to describe grown men whining like little children over a baseball team day in and day out without the slightest bit of self awareness. But, thanks to the kind work of people who showed me how to manage the ignore feature, I don't need to bother with it.
    You new to the Internet?

    Also, I fail to see the difference between the whiners and those who whine about them.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    Wow is a word I use to describe grown men whining like little children over a baseball team day in and day out without the slightest bit of self awareness. But, thanks to the kind work of people who showed me how to manage the ignore feature, I don't need to bother with it.
    self awareness huh? Interesting. You're full of insults. Spend a lot of time insulting people you don't know because of their opinion. What does that say about you? Since, you know, you're apparently self aware.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    Wow is a word I use to describe grown men whining like little children over a baseball team day in and day out without the slightest bit of self awareness. But, thanks to the kind work of people who showed me how to manage the ignore feature, I don't need to bother with it.


    Looks to me like you're still bothering with it.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    You new to the Internet?

    Also, I fail to see the difference between the whiners and those who whine about them.

    Apparently you need to be self-aware to know the difference :-)

  19. #99
    The King In The North All-Star Nick Nelson's Avatar
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    Defending the signing of a bad pitcher by pointing out that he's slightly less horrible than the worst pitchers on one of the worst staffs in the majors last year, and then calling others irrational, is... odd.

    Honestly, I think the justifiable frustration with the Correia signing stems mostly from two things: 1) He was the premier free agent pitching acquisition by a team that claimed to be serious about wanting to turn around a horrendous rotation. 2) The extra year. It means this isn't quite as simple as -- in your words -- "if he sucks, he'll get cut." The Twins are now obligated to stick with him past the point where he proves himself a liability because they have a chunk of cash committed to him the following year. See: Nick Blackburn.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    You new to the Internet?

    Also, I fail to see the difference between the whiners and those who whine about them.
    Fair enough. My point is merely that a person like Seth who's been proven to have access and insight to baseball that most of these forum posters suggested that perhaps enough e-ink had been spilled in the name of bemoaning the Correia signing over the past month. The response to that was throwing hands in the air about free speech and censorship. There's no need for it. We're here to talk about baseball, a game, a fun pastime. If that level of ire is fun for you have at it. Also, go to my ignore list, that's all.

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