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Thread: Mason: Correia expects to eat up innings for the Twins

  1. #61
    The King In The North All-Star Nick Nelson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    Fan bases always have their irrational focal points for their ire. Correia is one of them, clearly.
    I don't see what's irrational about it. The Twins' pitching staff is in horrible shape, in part, because they value pitchers like Correia.

  2. #62
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Actually, based on the concepts of WAR, he more likely has less value than what they are paying him.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  3. #63
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    A 30% Improvement is a great improvement. It might still be failing, but it is improvement. Your make-believe poor parenting is not really germane to the discussion, though.

    The Twins signed a player who based on the concepts of Wins over Replacement has more value than they are paying for him. Thus it's potentially a good move.
    A replacement level player is worth 0 WAR. The Twins had 80 starts last year by the 6 ERA guys which were good for something like -10 Wins. In other words, they weren't even replacement level. So your baseline is somewhat skewed in relation to the overall marketplace for Wins.

    But that is all really beside the point. Its not the value that is problem. This team has plenty of money. The problem is that Jr would rather get a good deal on a 1 Win player, than get a mediocre deal on a 3 or 4 win player.

    This team has 20 games or more to make up. And they can afford to overpay good players on contracts that are a mediocre value. Heck, Mauer is a mediocre value. But you fill your roster with Mauer's and you have a much better team than a roster full of Correias.

  4. #64
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    The problem is that Jr would rather get a good deal on a 1 Win player, than get a mediocre deal on a 3 or 4 win player.
    And in this case they got a mediocre deal on a guy that likely isn't even a 1 win player.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  5. #65
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    I agree. That's why when my children failed a test miserably in school I always gave them credit for failing the next test less miserably. "Hey, good job junior! You only failed by 30% this time! Great improvement!"
    Your Kids are gonna turn out great!!!

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    A 30% Improvement is a great improvement. It might still be failing, but it is improvement. Your make-believe poor parenting is not really germane to the discussion, though.

    The Twins signed a player who based on the concepts of Wins over Replacement has more value than they are paying for him. Thus it's potentially a good move.
    Well how about this one then. The Twins apologists are acting like the parents who are told their child has been sent home from school for misbehaving and they fly off the handle and blame the school. "My kid couldn't have done anything wrong! He's an angel! Are you calling him a liar?!?!"

    The rest of us are trying to hold our child accontable for thier mistakes hoping that they will not repeat them and they may develop into a functioning ball club er human being.

  7. #67
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    I think it's a more accurate comparison to be a Parent of a child that is getting into Bar Fights at age 12. Screaming at the top of his lungs in the supermarket that he wants Milk Duds while setting his sister's bra on fire and crapping behind the fridge where no one can see it but everyone can smell it.

    The parent sends that kid to Juvie and changes the locks on the doors and picks up 3 or 4 new kids who are all fairly well behaved but struggle from time to time with advanced math.

    My comparison is the most accurate!!!

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
    I don't see what's irrational about it. The Twins' pitching staff is in horrible shape, in part, because they value pitchers like Correia.
    And fans are irrational when they ignore the fact that players like Correia do have value. He's being paid less for two years of service to the Twins than Anibel Sanchez is getting for one year with the Tigers. Using a bunch of boring calculations, we see that Sanchez projects to be worth 4-6 More wins over that 2 year period than Correia. He's also getting paid 35 Million to Correia's 10.

    We also see that Sanchez is contracted for an additional 3 years where his downward trends are more likely to be catching up with him. He's a much bigger risk, and that's where guys like Correia have their value. They're not as flashy effective, but they do help good teams win. If the team has a functioning offense that can put up similar numbers to last year, Correia will put the team in a postion to win a very similar percentage of games Sanchez will for the Tigers, at much less cost.

    The annoying part of Correia's contract shouldn't be that he signed it, but that the flexibility it provided hasn't resulted in more signings.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    And fans are irrational when they ignore the fact that players like Correia do have value. He's being paid less for two years of service to the Twins than Anibel Sanchez is getting for one year with the Tigers. Using a bunch of boring calculations, we see that Sanchez projects to be worth 4-6 More wins over that 2 year period than Correia. He's also getting paid 35 Million to Correia's 10.

    We also see that Sanchez is contracted for an additional 3 years where his downward trends are more likely to be catching up with him. He's a much bigger risk, and that's where guys like Correia have their value. They're not as flashy effective, but they do help good teams win. If the team has a functioning offense that can put up similar numbers to last year, Correia will put the team in a postion to win a very similar percentage of games Sanchez will for the Tigers, at much less cost.

    The annoying part of Correia's contract shouldn't be that he signed it, but that the flexibility it provided hasn't resulted in more signings.
    If you are going to compare Correia's contract to Sanchez's, then why not compare Correia's to Lannan, Jurrjains or Marcum? Those guys are getting paid in fewer dollars and years than Correia. Would that not make them a better proposition for the Twins under your theory?
    Last edited by nicksaviking; 01-30-2013 at 02:34 PM.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    Actually, based on the concepts of WAR, he more likely has less value than what they are paying him.
    You have to evaluate who the player would have been replacing. And in Correia's case, it's a bunch of really bad players. Hell, the guy was worth .9 WAR last year even though he was tossed out of the rotation for a couple weeks.

    The rest of us are trying to hold our child accontable for thier mistakes hoping that they will not repeat them and they may develop into a functioning ball club
    No. At this point all you're doing is whining. You aren't in a postion to hold the team to anything. You're angry because you don't like the direction and there's nothing you can do about it. You're certain you have better plans than the Twins, but for a cruel twist of fate you are working at an insurance company rather than the Twins front office. It's stupid to keep carrying on day after day about the same thing. Kevin Correia is going to pitch for the Twins. If he sucks he'll get cut. If he pitches like he has, he'll win some games for them. It's just that simple.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    If you are going to compare Correia's contract to Sanchez's, then why not compare Correia's to Lannon, Jurrjains or Marcum? Those guys are getting paid in fewer dollars and years than Correia. Would that not make them a better proposition for the Twins under your theory?
    That's exactly my point with the last line. I have no issue with Correia, Pelfrey, Worley. I want more. There weren't any opportunities for aces this year, so I prefer the blue collar approach. Joe Saunders would be perfect for this.
    Last edited by LoganJones; 01-30-2013 at 02:32 PM.

  12. #72
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    You have to evaluate who the player would have been replacing. And in Correia's case, it's a bunch of really bad players. Hell, the guy was worth .9 WAR last year even though he was tossed out of the rotation for a couple weeks.
    If you're going to give Correia "credit" for the person he's replacing, then you have to give that same credit to a superior pitcher that would be replacing him, which makes your argument just as wrong.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  13. #73
    Senior Member All-Star
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    You have to evaluate who the player would have been replacing. And in Correia's case, it's a bunch of really bad players. Hell, the guy was worth .9 WAR last year even though he was tossed out of the rotation for a couple weeks.



    No. At this point all you're doing is whining. You aren't in a postion to hold the team to anything. You're angry because you don't like the direction and there's nothing you can do about it. You're certain you have better plans than the Twins, but for a cruel twist of fate you are working at an insurance company rather than the Twins front office. It's stupid to keep carrying on day after day about the same thing. Kevin Correia is going to pitch for the Twins. If he sucks he'll get cut. If he pitches like he has, he'll win some games for them. It's just that simple.
    There is plenty we can do about it. If we are vocal enough the dissatisfaction will spread. Reporters will ask the front office difficult questions they would rather not be honest about and fans will have less patience and will not tune in or show up to the stadium. The fans need to be the FIRST segment of Twins nation to hold the front office accountable. How much money and effort do you think they would put into the product if the fans blindly followed the team and said nothing? There is a reason the Cubs are such miserable losers.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    If you're going to give Correia "credit" for the person he's replacing, then you have to give that same credit to a superior pitcher that would be replacing him, which makes your argument just as wrong.
    No, it doesn't. I've never once suggested guys like Sanchez or Grienke wouldn't have been even better for the rotation. I'm not arguing that Correia is the best possible choice for the Team. I'm saying he's not really being overpaid based on ways to evaluate his value to the team. I'm also arguing that getting multiple guys in Correia's price range on short deals is a better way to recover from a truly shambled rotation than paying one guy 5/88 when he's showing signs of getting worse.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by nicksaviking View Post
    There is plenty we can do about it. If we are vocal enough the dissatisfaction will spread. Reporters will ask the front office difficult questions they would rather not be honest about and fans will have less patience and will not tune in or show up to the stadium. The fans need to be the FIRST segment of Twins nation to hold the front office accountable. How much money and effort do you think they would put into the product if the fans blindly followed the team and said nothing? There is a reason the Cubs are such miserable losers.
    Posting angry missives over and over in a message board is not going to spread dissatisfaction. It's just going to make people ignore your nonsense.

  16. #76
    Senior Member All-Star Willihammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganJones View Post
    No, it doesn't. I've never once suggested guys like Sanchez or Grienke wouldn't have been even better for the rotation. I'm not arguing that Correia is the best possible choice for the Team. I'm saying he's not really being overpaid based on ways to evaluate his value to the team. I'm also arguing that getting multiple guys in Correia's price range on short deals is a better way to recover from a truly shambled rotation than paying one guy 5/88 when he's showing signs of getting worse.
    The price of Wins isn't contingent on how good or bad the Twins pitching staff was last year. Whether Correia represents a 2 win or 20 win improvement over the likes of PJ Walters and Sam Deduno is irrelevant. He's a 1 win talent, at best. So the Twins aren't getting any particularly great value, certainly not much better than a 1-4 win talent like Sanchez at $15m, or even a 1-10 Win talent like Greinke at $25m.

  17. #77

    The Correia Saga

    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    Lets give the old boy a chance. He pitched some good games last year for the Pirates. Also, Target field is not a homer friendly park so maybe hitters will just be hitting longer fly balls that can be caught. He will be more effective at home so lets position him that way, and pass him by when we are playing in a band box size stadium.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Willihammer View Post
    The price of Wins isn't contingent on how good or bad the Twins pitching staff was last year. Whether Correia represents a 2 win or 20 win improvement over the likes of PJ Walters and Sam Deduno is irrelevant. He's a 1 win talent, at best. So the Twins aren't getting any particularly great value, certainly not much better than a 1-4 win talent like Sanchez at $15m, or even a 1-10 Win talent like Greinke at $25m.
    Do you think WAR is a real thing? I doubt you do. It's just a way of quickly outlining how much runs are worth on average. That varies from year to year, team to team. It's just a basic idea that helps shape what you feel paying any player is appropriate. They're paying 5 Mil per year to Correia to as you say, give them at best 1 win for next year. I'm sure the Team thinks he's got the potential to be worth more than 1 win, but let's just say they expect him to be worth 1. It still seems they have paid him appropriately, since nobody signs someone they expect to fail.

  19. #79
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Correia has accumulated roughly 1 FIP-based WAR over the last 3 year, and negative 2 RA-based WAR in that time. That makes him more of a replacement level player than a 1 WAR player moving forward.

    You don't give $5 million to near-replacement level players, and you certainly don't give them multiple years.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    Correia has accumulated roughly 1 FIP-based WAR over the last 3 year, and negative 2 RA-based WAR in that time. That makes him more of a replacement level player than a 1 WAR player moving forward.

    You don't give $5 million to near-replacement level players, and you certainly don't give them multiple years.
    OK. Feel free to keep banging your stick on the ground. I'm sure you'll eventually get your point across.

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