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Thread: Marcum signing just got "cuirouser" and the Twins have some 'splainin' to do

  1. #101
    Senior Member Triple-A mcrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Of the three SP they signed, two were serious health risks. Just what exactly, in your bizarre view, is "A guy like Marcum"? What exactly does that mean? Maybe you just don't realize he's a good pitcher, something we have none of.

    Plenty of blame to go around between Ryan and the Pohlads, but this was Ryan's call.
    Oh... for God's sake.

    A guy like Marcum is a guy who had a mysterious arm injury last year that nobody apparently could figure out, only one offer was made to him and for $4m, a good but not great pitcher when healthy (Probably not as good as some people here think though), and a guy only here for a year.

    It would have been nice to give him a try but how can you be so upset they didn't give a guy who is probably coin flip on being healthy or not?

    I can go over this for the 5th time: He probably would have been better than signing Pelfrey or Corriea but if it were between him and Saunders I like Saunders better though it would have been good to have both.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by S. View Post
    We should be so lucky to have pitchers who are barely top 30 starters
    30 teams...a top 30 starter...Hmmm.

  3. #103
    Senior Member Triple-A mcrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S. View Post
    We should be so lucky to have pitchers who are barely top 30 starters
    Sad, but true.

  4. #104
    Senior Member Triple-A mcrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    30 teams...a top 30 starter...Hmmm.
    Yeah, he's basically a god #2 starter IF HEALTHY.

  5. #105
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcrow View Post
    Oh... for God's sake.
    Indeed, there are five pages of awful arguments from you. Do you even know where you stand?

    It would have been nice to give him a try but how can you be so upset they didn't give a guy who is probably coin flip on being healthy or not?
    Because 20M is being pocketed by the ownership and the guy he bumps is Kevin Correia if he's healthy. Where in god's name is the downside? No more post after post of nonsense....where is the downside in that?

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post



    Because 20M is being pocketed by the ownership and the guy he bumps is Kevin Correia if he's healthy. Where in god's name is the downside? No more post after post of nonsense....where is the downside in that?
    On this one you are 100% correct.

  7. #107
    Senior Member Triple-A mcrow's Avatar
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    Well, I think I'm done with the subject because apparently it's impossible for certain people to to separate the Twins spending habits from good decision making. I guess you should just toss money around at every guy walking buy even if their arm might fall off and on top of that you are utterly silly to suggest it might be a bad idea.

    I for one would love to see a $120M payroll but we all know that's not going to happen. Keep going back to the $20M they're supposed to spend this year but it's fairly clear TR has been given a budget that is substantially less than what they promised to spend. Yes, Pelfrey wasn't a good signing when you could have gotten Saunders or maybe even Marcum if inclined to take a risk. Would have been great to get all three or maybe even a big name pitcher instead. However, I'm not going to be PO'd about not spending $4m on a guy that is likely to be injured this year anyway.

    Believe it or not this isn't a clear cut kickass deal and that's why I'm wishy-washy on it. You guys say, "They got the money and damn it they should spend it!" and I agree to a point but tossing money at players just to say you're spending is never a good idea under any circumstances.

    You guys complain about not signing guys like Marcum when you should be reserving the anger for not signing guys like Greinke, Sanchez, McCarthy..ect who are young enough to be here a while and are actually good pitchers with no significant injury issues. Granted, these guys might never have come here at all but the fact that they had no intentions to even submit offers is frustrating.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcrow View Post
    I guess you should just toss money around at every guy walking buy even if their arm might fall off and on top of that you are utterly silly to suggest it might be a bad idea.
    No one said that.
    You guys say, "They got the money and damn it they should spend it!" and I agree to a point but tossing money at players just to say you're spending is never a good idea under any circumstances.
    No one said that.
    You guys complain about not signing guys like Marcum when you should be reserving the anger for not signing guys like Greinke, Sanchez, McCarthy..ect who are young enough to be here a while and are actually good pitchers
    You just said that Marcum is a top 30 pitcher and a #2 if he's healthy. That would constitute an "actually good pitcher"

    Once again, you're just dodging the questions and arguing about things that none of us are saying. What would have been the downside in signing Marcum?

  9. #109
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcrow View Post
    I for one would love to see a $120M payroll
    Do you know what it is right now? Seriously?

    Keep going back to the $20M they're supposed to spend this year but it's fairly clear TR has been given a budget that is substantially less than what they promised to spend.
    St. Peter and Ryan have said they have substantial "payroll flexibility" still remaining. No one is pulling anything out of their ass except you. Holy gods man.

    You have totally missed the point over and over again, perhaps you should be done until you can process what others are telling you before responding. There is zero downside and tremendous upside. What this deal represents, more than anything, is this organization's stubbornness about "their way" no matter the potential benefits of venturing from it. That narrow vision is very disconcerting for the future.

  10. #110
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer FrodaddyG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcrow View Post
    I guess you should just toss money around at every guy walking buy even if their arm might fall off and on top of that you are utterly silly to suggest it might be a bad idea.
    This would almost be a useful point if they hadn't guaranteed just as much money to a guy coming off a surgery which typically requires at least 2 years to return to full effectiveness. But hey, why take a chance on the guy who might be injured and has been effective as recently as the end of last season when we can pay that money to a guy who was very recently definitely injured and hasn't been all that useful in three years!

  11. #111
    Senior Member Triple-A mcrow's Avatar
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    You guys are a real bunch of jackasses...seriously.


    I really regret even attempting to have a conversation with you guys.

    I've said Marcum is talented, could be a #2 on most teams if he's healthy! You think it's a no-brainer but it's really not. I keep saying I don't like Pelfrey either....

    Lev, if you had a clue you'd know I was refering to next season becaue they'll be somewhere close to $240m in revenue if the numbers I saw are correct. So, $120M is about 50%. Their is no down side? How about giving him $4m and wasting time on him if he can't pitch?

    S., it helps if you read the entire post. I said "actually a good pitcher AND HAS NO HEALTH CONCERNS".

    FFS you cannot have an opposing view on this site without people treating you like an idiot. Very disappointed but probably explains why Seth and the others don't seem to bother trying to argue points that much.

  12. #112
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcrow View Post
    Lev, if you had a clue you'd know I was refering to next season becaue they'll be somewhere close to $240m in revenue if the numbers I saw are correct. So, $120M is about 50%. Their is no down side? How about giving him $4m and wasting time on him if he can't pitch?.
    The "woe is me" act is pretty sad when you can't even get this stuff straight. 4M this year (and even friggin next year) does NOTHING to hamper future payroll. This is not a hard concept. The fact that you bring it up shows how little you've invested in researching what you're arguing.

    Again, there is ZERO downside to adding Marcum. Zero. Multi-paragraph responses ducking this point doesn't help you save face, it only exposes how little ground you are actually standing on.

  13. #113
    Senior Member All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Usual suspects, prior to Marcum signing with Mets: "Marcum is still out there and would be a good get, if the price is right. The offseason isn't over yet, let's just see how this plays out, yada yada yada." Usual suspects, after Marcum signs with Mets: "Too risky. Didn't want him. Nobody else wanted him either. Need to see what Devries, Deduno and Walters have, yada yada yada."
    And we make both these judgments without looking at the medical records which would dictate the payoff of any risk. It would have been awesome if the Twins signed Marcum and felt their were little to no health risks, but that just isn't the case. Given Marcum's contract it's pretty fair that 29 other teams felt he was too risky too.

    The Twins did take risks with Pelfry and Harden, just not the board's pet health-risk. Sure there's less upside in maybe both of them, but perhaps there's lower risk (we don't know because none of us have access to the medicals).

  14. #114
    Senior Member All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Twins Daily logic: "I'll just continue to ignore the possibility that Marcum might have legitimate, obvious health risks, and continue to hate on the Twins."

  15. #115
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer FrodaddyG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    Twins Daily logic: "I'll just continue to ignore the possibility that Marcum might have legitimate, obvious health risks, and continue to hate on the Twins."
    And the counterpoint of "He's hurt, why take the risk?" is generally invalidated by the previous signing of returning-from-injury Pelfrey for the same money. Marcum is an injury risk, Pelfrey is returning from injury. One of these has at least a slight chance of being near the peak of his ability for the entirety of a one-year contract, and it isn't the guy less than a year removed from TJS.

  16. #116
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    Give it up boys, mccrow isn't going to change his mind. The question I would like to have answered concerns the deafening silence from the Twins about Marcum and the rest of their FA pitcher "activity".

  17. #117
    Senior Member All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrodaddyG View Post
    And the counterpoint of "He's hurt, why take the risk?" is generally invalidated by the previous signing of returning-from-injury Pelfrey for the same money. Marcum is an injury risk, Pelfrey is returning from injury. One of these has at least a slight chance of being near the peak of his ability for the entirety of a one-year contract, and it isn't the guy less than a year removed from TJS.
    Look you can't pretend to know which is more of a health risk for the upcoming season without looking at the medical records. You're just guessing based on your general knowledge of TJS and your lack of knowledge about Marcum's medicals. That seems pretty specious, doesn't it? Maybe the Twins made a mistake with Pelfry, but that doesn't mean that Marcum doesn't carry even more risk.

  18. #118
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    Edit: I can see neither side is going anywhere on this one, so I'll leave well enough alone for the time being.
    Last edited by S.; 01-31-2013 at 07:30 PM.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    Give it up boys, mccrow isn't going to change his mind. The question I would like to have answered concerns the deafening silence from the Twins about Marcum and the rest of their FA pitcher "activity".
    That's precisely the answers that I felt it necessary to seek from Twins management, on behalf of all of the loyal paying customers- who would like a coherent clarification of exactly what happened- and on when and how they lost their way towards their self-stated goal of signing "a pretty good pitcher"- in the Opening Post. (Notwithstanding Pseudo's solipsistic rant that such a legitimate concern is dismissively juvenile and inflammatory.)

    Lest we forget, the last press reports stated that the Twins never made an offer to Marcum. At this point, they owe it to their fans to go into at least some detail as to who did receive offers and justify why offers weren't made to players like Marcum- a guy that actually fit into their stated strategy.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    Look you can't pretend to know which is more of a health risk for the upcoming season without looking at the medical records. You're just guessing based on your general knowledge of TJS and your lack of knowledge about Marcum's medicals. That seems pretty specious, doesn't it? Maybe the Twins made a mistake with Pelfry, but that doesn't mean that Marcum doesn't carry even more risk.
    We don't need to pretend anything to know that the Mets medical staff passed him and that the Mets were then willing to risk (up to) $8M. General knowledge about the history of TJS pitchers is pretty well-documented, again not a guessing game, and certainly not specious, paramaters of medical hisotry are established for likely outcomes.

    We also know that Marcum pitched well after his DL stint, we have a variety of potential outcomes on the predictability scale for Pelfrey. But you're right, Marcum might never pitch again, oh but wait, you haven't looked at the medical records either, right?

    We also know that Pelfrey hasn't been effective since 2010, Marcum was effective 4 months ago. You're trying way too hard to overthink this one and coming up short, save for the flowery perjoratives, substituting for logic.

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