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Thread: Wa Po: Weird Story About Span Leaving the Twins

  1. #21
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badsmerf View Post
    I think the Twins are doing a pretty good job with their minor league hitters. They haven't had many high profile prospects flop and the ones that do never make it elsewhere.
    This. Over the past decade, it's hard to label the Twins hitters as the problem for the team's lack of success in the regular season and postseason. They've been churning out decent hitters for quite some time and the offense seemed to improve quite a bit once they kicked Swing Like A Man out of the "hitting coach" role, changed his named to Windmill, and inserted him as "third base coach".

  2. #22
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Yeah I can't think of one real "bust" that the Twins drafted high, I guess Plouffe was a bust for a bit, but even last year he showed some promise, Morales has fallen off the map but that may be more due to injury then anything else. The guys who did struggle were developed by other organizations where it was to late to fix: Gomez and Delmon.

    Anyone that tries to turn Span's comments into a negative is high IMO, the dude ended up becoming one of the better lead off hitters in the game, it's not like he was oozing with Bryce Harper talent when he came out as well, he was chosen in the same spot as a guy like Hicks, I think if Hicks mirrored Span's career none of us would be real upset.

  3. #23
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    I'm not knocking the Twins minor or major league coaches... I wouldnt dream of it... I'm saying its possible that someone took a young Span and tried to make him do something he isn't comfortable with especially when youmconsider his unique no stride style and I'm pretty sure that every organization will take the wrong approach with someone along the way so no reason to knock the Twins.

    It happens and Span survived if it was the case. Who knows if its the case.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Yeah I can't think of one real "bust" that the Twins drafted high, I guess Plouffe was a bust for a bit, but even last year he showed some promise, Morales has fallen off the map but that may be more due to injury then anything else. The guys who did struggle were developed by other organizations where it was to late to fix: Gomez and Delmon.
    That would depend on your definition of 'drafted high' and/or 'bust'

  5. #25
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer FrodaddyG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Yeah I can't think of one real "bust" that the Twins drafted high, I guess Plouffe was a bust for a bit, but even last year he showed some promise, Morales has fallen off the map but that may be more due to injury then anything else. The guys who did struggle were developed by other organizations where it was to late to fix: Gomez and Delmon.
    Twins hitters taken in top 5 rounds since 2000:
    2000: Tag Bozied, Edgardo Lebron
    2001: Mauer, Jose Morales
    2002: Span, Michael Thomas
    2003: Matt Moses, John Woodard, Brandon McArthur
    2004: Plouffe, Mark Robinson
    2005: Henry Sanchez, Andrew Thompson, Paul Kelly, Michael Moore, Steve Tolleson
    2006: Parmelee, Benson, Garrett Olson, Whit Robbins, Devin Shepherd
    2007: Revere, Danny Rams, Angel Morales
    2008: Hicks, Tyler Ladendorf, Daniel Ortiz, Nicholas Romero
    2009: Derek McCallum, Tobias Streich
    2010: Niko Goodrum, Eddie Rosario, Nate Roberts
    2011: Levi Michael, Travis Harrison, Tyler Grimes
    2012: Buxton, Adam Walker

    I cut it off at first 5 rounds, but the line could be drawn anywhere depending on your preference. I'm not sure that I'd say it's primarily guys from other organizations that have struggled. In the span of 2000-2007 (2008 class now just rolling into the big leagues with Hicks) the Twins only got, by my count, 7 hitters at the top of the draft who ever saw big league ABs. Of the seven, four of them are Plouffe, Parmelee, Benson, and Jose Morales, who are either still relatively unknown commodities or known non-commodity Jose Morales.

    Minus the jackpot of taking Mauer at #1, they have gotten two guys who profile as MLB regulars, and one of them is Ben Revere, whose ideal position would probably be a 4th OF on a good team. That's out of 23 non-Mauer hitters taken. None of the ones I see on the list ever went on to do anything with a different organization, either. I'm not sure how you'd define "bust", but "being out of baseball without ever sniffing the high minors" would be a good start, and many, many of these guys fit that bill.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrodaddyG View Post
    Twins hitters taken in top 5 rounds since 2000:
    2000: Tag Bozied, Edgardo Lebron
    2001: Mauer, Jose Morales
    2002: Span, Michael Thomas
    2003: Matt Moses, John Woodard, Brandon McArthur
    2004: Plouffe, Mark Robinson
    2005: Henry Sanchez, Andrew Thompson, Paul Kelly, Michael Moore, Steve Tolleson
    2006: Parmelee, Benson, Garrett Olson, Whit Robbins, Devin Shepherd
    2007: Revere, Danny Rams, Angel Morales
    2008: Hicks, Tyler Ladendorf, Daniel Ortiz, Nicholas Romero
    2009: Derek McCallum, Tobias Streich
    2010: Niko Goodrum, Eddie Rosario, Nate Roberts
    2011: Levi Michael, Travis Harrison, Tyler Grimes
    2012: Buxton, Adam Walker

    I cut it off at first 5 rounds, but the line could be drawn anywhere depending on your preference. I'm not sure that I'd say it's primarily guys from other organizations that have struggled. In the span of 2000-2007 (2008 class now just rolling into the big leagues with Hicks) the Twins only got, by my count, 7 hitters at the top of the draft who ever saw big league ABs. Of the seven, four of them are Plouffe, Parmelee, Benson, and Jose Morales, who are either still relatively unknown commodities or known non-commodity Jose Morales.

    Minus the jackpot of taking Mauer at #1, they have gotten two guys who profile as MLB regulars, and one of them is Ben Revere, whose ideal position would probably be a 4th OF on a good team. That's out of 23 non-Mauer hitters taken. None of the ones I see on the list ever went on to do anything with a different organization, either. I'm not sure how you'd define "bust", but "being out of baseball without ever sniffing the high minors" would be a good start, and many, many of these guys fit that bill.
    I think it is pretty unfair to count anyone drafted after 2007 (especially HS player) as of yet, and I wouldn't think too much of anyone drafted after the second round, as the hit rates on those picks are pretty low across the majors. A couple of those guys didn't sign (notably Bozied), and a couple of them were lost because of injury instead of performance (notably Thompson and Kelly).

    The two big busts are Moses and Sanchez. I never really knew the story on Moses - just never made it, Sanchez was the classic slugger who could never figure out a breaking ball.
    Papers...business papers.

  7. #27
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    For total fairness... A similiar list of draft choices should be compiled for the other 29 clubs... I just looked thru the Rangers... It didn't look very impressive either. I don't know for sure but Im guessing that all the teams will have a similiar list of busts or question marks.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
    I heard from people close the organization that Span took the publicized trade rumors in 2011 very personally and some days wouldn't even come out to the ballpark late in the year. I was always sort of perplexed by this – doesn't Span understand the business of baseball? – but if his emotions were screwy due to the recent concussion, it would make a lot of sense.
    I think Span being upset with the trade rumors is very justified. He signed a team-friendly deal because he wanted to play here, and the Twins start shopping him fairly early in that deal despite him performing well. On top of all that, it was the fact that he had such a team-friendly deal that his trade value was as high as it was. I think he was well within his rights to be upset.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrodaddyG View Post
    Twins hitters taken in top 5 rounds since 2000:
    2000: Tag Bozied, Edgardo Lebron
    2001: Mauer, Jose Morales
    2002: Span, Michael Thomas
    2003: Matt Moses, John Woodard, Brandon McArthur
    2004: Plouffe, Mark Robinson
    2005: Henry Sanchez, Andrew Thompson, Paul Kelly, Michael Moore, Steve Tolleson
    2006: Parmelee, Benson, Garrett Olson, Whit Robbins, Devin Shepherd
    2007: Revere, Danny Rams, Angel Morales
    2008: Hicks, Tyler Ladendorf, Daniel Ortiz, Nicholas Romero
    2009: Derek McCallum, Tobias Streich
    2010: Niko Goodrum, Eddie Rosario, Nate Roberts
    2011: Levi Michael, Travis Harrison, Tyler Grimes
    2012: Buxton, Adam Walker

    I cut it off at first 5 rounds, but the line could be drawn anywhere depending on your preference. I'm not sure that I'd say it's primarily guys from other organizations that have struggled. In the span of 2000-2007 (2008 class now just rolling into the big leagues with Hicks) the Twins only got, by my count, 7 hitters at the top of the draft who ever saw big league ABs. Of the seven, four of them are Plouffe, Parmelee, Benson, and Jose Morales, who are either still relatively unknown commodities or known non-commodity Jose Morales.

    Minus the jackpot of taking Mauer at #1, they have gotten two guys who profile as MLB regulars, and one of them is Ben Revere, whose ideal position would probably be a 4th OF on a good team. That's out of 23 non-Mauer hitters taken. None of the ones I see on the list ever went on to do anything with a different organization, either. I'm not sure how you'd define "bust", but "being out of baseball without ever sniffing the high minors" would be a good start, and many, many of these guys fit that bill.

    And those are just the hitters...was his comment just about hitters or high draft picks in general?

  10. #30
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer FrodaddyG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
    I think it is pretty unfair to count anyone drafted after 2007 (especially HS player) as of yet,.
    And that's why I didn't include anyone from 2008 on in the stats I threw together. It seemed plenty bleak just using through 2007.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    For total fairness... A similiar list of draft choices should be compiled for the other 29 clubs... I just looked thru the Rangers... It didn't look very impressive either. I don't know for sure but Im guessing that all the teams will have a similiar list of busts or question marks.
    yeah, but then again, no one said 'Yeah I can't think of one real "bust" that the Rangers drafted high'. Gonna come out with a comment like that, gonna get called on it...and it doesn't mater if other teams had the same issues.

  12. #32
    Twins News Team MVP
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    For total fairness... A similiar list of draft choices should be compiled for the other 29 clubs... I just looked thru the Rangers... It didn't look very impressive either. I don't know for sure but Im guessing that all the teams will have a similiar list of busts or question marks.
    Except that the original poster suggested that he couldn't recall one real, single "bust" that the Twins drafted high. I believe the responding poster pointed out very accurately, that from 2000-07, among 1st-5th round draftees, the Twins have only netted two legit every-day position players in Mauer and Span, with Revere being a 4th OF on a good team.

    I guess I would ask to make this level of fairness a "comprehensive" comparison; in your ongoing analysis of the other 28 teams, beyond the Rangers and Twins, how many teams have more than 2-3 players drafted in the first 5 rounds who are currently starting position players? If more than half have 4 or more who fit the criteria, than the Twins are at least 33%, or more, worse than the median.

    Only 3 players produced in 8 years of 40(+comp choices) potential high draft picks "seems" like a low rate, it's apparently as problematic for the Twins (and perhaps, others) as it is projecting and picking the right arms.

  13. #33
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    I read the original post and thought to myself that a list like Frodaddy put together would shoot that theory down.

    All in All... I haven't spent anytime researching it but I've looked at enough drafts to realize that the amount of early round busts from team to team... Year to year is large enough to stop a team of oxen in their tracks.

    This list by itself looks bad for our Twins so I just wanted to point out that this problem... most likely... wasn't exclusive to the Twins.

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