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Thread: Article: Big Year for the Manager

  1. #61
    Art Howe had no say.

  2. #62
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    funny thing is, at that point of the season, we had lost ONE game in which Rauch was brought in to SAVE a game.
    Dont get me wrong... I HATed that trade with a Capitol HAT. But if memory serves me... Rauch was doing Ok but he was starting to wear a bit. Nathan was out and Rauch was given the role by default. His saves were never comfortable saves.

    Regardless... I was excited about Ramos... I was reading Seth's blog and Seth was very Pro Ramos and I was reading Tom Kelly's assessments and Kelly wasn't really the type to glow about young players but his comments were glowing about Ramos.

    And I wasn't a Capps fan at all but he did close as we reached the playoffs.

  3. #63
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcntwinsfan View Post
    Think Moneyball
    Moneyball was a book that was turned into a movie. The screenplay was written by Aaron Sorkin.

    In real life... Billy Beane was introducing a new way of thinking surrounded by traditionalists. Heads butt every time in those situations. In Baseball, In Schools, in every work place.

    Art Howe and Billy Beane were estranged and Art Howe was released from his contract despite a winning record.

    The same thing would happen with Gardenhire and Ryan... If Gardy wasn't allowed to participate in the discussions and its safe to assume that Gardy and Ryan have learned to trust each other working together this long.

    I would be very surprised if Gardy didn't have a lot of input on roster decisions.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    Moneyball was a book that was turned into a movie. The screenplay was written by Aaron Sorkin.

    In real life... Billy Beane was introducing a new way of thinking surrounded by traditionalists. Heads butt every time in those situations. In Baseball, In Schools, in every work place.

    Art Howe and Billy Beane were estranged and Art Howe was released from his contract despite a winning record.

    The same thing would happen with Gardenhire and Ryan... If Gardy wasn't allowed to participate in the discussions and its safe to assume that Gardy and Ryan have learned to trust each other working together this long.

    I would be very surprised if Gardy didn't have a lot of input on roster decisions.
    I was speaking about the book. But I'm sure you are aware the A's won the AL west last year and I'm not willing to attribute that to Bob Melvin's acumen in player acquisitions. Call me crazy. But if that is the case, the Twins should trade Sano, Buxton, Berrios and Warren Buffet to acquire him.

  5. #65
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmlease1 View Post
    There's a school of thought (started in the NFL, but I can't recall which coach said it) that after a 10 years or so you need to move on because the players start to tune you out. I don't know if that's true or not, but I think it's a fair concern.

    I would judge Gardy this season on a few factors, and winning isn't really one of them.

    1. Does the team quit on him at any point in the season? If they do, then it's probably time to make a change..
    His team has always quit in the post-season. Always.

    Post-season record is a very important factor as well (and I don't buy the "crapshoot" analogy; were it one, the Twins would have won one World Series and been in at least 2 others this millennium. And they didn't; and I cannot help pointing the finger for that at the Manager of the Millennium, esp the season they had both the MVP and the Cy Young award winners.)

    Firing a manager, a general manager, a coach gives a message to the fans and the players that the people who are running the team care. The people who are running the Twins apparently are fine with the way this team has been going and by the fact that this team has not won a world series since 1991. I have a problem with that.
    Maybe they have been fine when a mediocre product was selling tickets. Now that it is not, I hope they are not...
    Last edited by Thrylos; 02-21-2013 at 07:06 PM.
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  6. #66
    There have been player managers but, as far as I know, there has never been a manager GM. I will have to go meditate in the desert for forty days to solve that riddle within a conundrum.

  7. #67
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcntwinsfan View Post
    There have been player managers but, as far as I know, there has never been a manager GM. I will have to go meditate in the desert for forty days to solve that riddle within a conundrum.
    Um... Try a manager/GM/owner: The Twins' Franchise very own Clark Griffith (he managed the senators from 1912-1920; had a minority stake since 1912 and became a single owner for the last 2 seasons he managed the team,) uncle and adopted father of Calvin Griffith who moved the Twins to Minnesota.

    (the concept of GM did not exist then, but owners had GM responsibilities as well)
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  8. #68
    I stand corrected. I should have said in the last 100 years.

  9. #69
    Interesting side note. Calvin's grandson used to make book for me. I should have known.

  10. #70
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    How about Connie Mack?
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  11. #71
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcntwinsfan View Post
    I stand corrected. I should have said in the last 100 years.
    Make it 90. It was in 1919 and 1920.
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  12. #72
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    If I'm in an executive position with the Twins, here's what I'm watching closely:

    1) How does Gardy respond to the new coaches? Steinbach, Cuellar and Brunansky were brought in to shake up the stagnation, and they need opportunities to have their voices heard by the team. Unfortunately, Gardy isn't off to an encouraging start. He's made passive-aggressive responses towards Steinbach, joking that he "looks forward" to Steinbach ripping Mauer if he goes 5-for-5 but calls a bad game. Later, as reported on ESPN 1500, he hinted that while he affirms Brunansky's new role, Vavra already has established relationships with certain players, and that he'll expect that coaching relationship to continue if Brunansky is "busy" with other players. I'm thinking that it might have been smarter for Ryan to cut ties with Vavra and Ullger, rather than reduce/change their positions and invite a confusion of roles.

    2) How do the prospects respond to Gardy? Will Gardy call players out for their perceived attitude, or their play on the field? If Gardenhire begins marginalizing young players because of their enthusiasm or emotional responses to the game, I'll be concerned. Keep the focus on description of their play, and not assumptions about their character.

    That said, I've argued that Ryan is a smart man. I believe he's going to have to make a very difficult decision during 2013, and, based on previous articles, I now expect him to hand the reigns over to Molitor before the start of 2014.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    How about Connie Mack?
    He was a part owner. I'm not sure that qualifies as GM. Murky waters. I hope you all understand my initial point. A manager definately has say on who he doesn't want on his team and what type of player he feels the team needs to acquire. But it is the job of the GM and assistant GM to target said players and make the deals to acquire them (or get rid of them) as the case may be. I would hope that if Bill Smith had ran the Ramos Capps trade by Gardy, he would have told him to sodomize himself. All conjecture. But I think we can all agree that there were many egregious personnel moves made while Billy boy was GM.

  14. #74
    Twins Moderator MVP Riverbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcntwinsfan View Post
    I was speaking about the book. But I'm sure you are aware the A's won the AL west last year and I'm not willing to attribute that to Bob Melvin's acumen in player acquisitions. Call me crazy. But if that is the case, the Twins should trade Sano, Buxton, Berrios and Warren Buffet to acquire him.
    I am aware that the A's won the West and after reading this I'm really not sure if we are talking about the same thing anymore.

    I'm really not comfortable making a definitive statement on how the Twins front office comes to conclusions and executes... I'm not on the inside.

    I don't believe that Terry Ryan runs the squad like we run our fantasy baseball teams. There are many departments and directors and coordinators who run each department and many employees who are knowlegeable baseball people employed in each department.

    In other words... Many people... Who would be a complete waste of employment... If their opinions carry no influence at all... The GM has to handle a bunch of departments from medical to scouting. I think it's entirely possible that Terry Ryan has signed players that he has no or very little knowledge of... on complete trust of someone working under him that is making a recommendation. I think it's possible that Rob Antony has completed player deals with Terry Ryan's proxy.

    Ron Gardenhire is the head of a rather important department as the field manager. It would awfully strange if he had no influence at all. If he didn't... Gardy would have left a long time ago I assume because people tend to want to have a say in their own destiny.

    I'm willing to bet (not my life) that they trust each other and efforts are made to address Gardy's wishes and therefore he has influence.

    You said that Gardy's influence was who he didn't want on the team(Lohse)... And what type of player he does want(supposed closer).

    Well if that's the only input he gets and I don't know how you can say with definition that you know the boundries of Gardys input.... but if thats all he gets... That's still influence.

    Unless you are on the inside... I won't assume you are not... Unless you are on the inside... You can't say that Gardy had no knowledge of the Ramos Capps deal and you can't say that if he did have knowledge that he didn't say I need a closer now and Ramos cant help me this year...

    Just like I can't say it did or didn't happen... We don't know.

    With the many people employed to gather information... I think it's quite possible that someone else besides Bill Smith supported the Ramos Capps trade. It would be pretty rogue and gutty for the GM to not only ignore everyone's advice working below him and add payroll at the same time when he has to justify that increase to his Boss the CEO.

    I don't know... I just have a hard time believing that Gardy has no influence and that was how the discussion started.

    Actually... I just wanted to comment about "betting your life". I thought it was funny.

  15. #75
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Physics Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    His team has always quit in the post-season. Always.
    Wow. Now that is a bold statement. I'd like you to say that face to face with Hunter or a few others on those teams. You must have some type of insider information to be able to make such a statement. Or is it just more rhetoric to rip on Gardy that we should just accept as truth because you say so? Of course teams work their tails off all season to make the playoffs and then say, "Good enough, let's go home."

  16. #76
    Twins Moderator All-Star twinsnorth49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Physics Guy View Post
    Wow. Now that is a bold statement. I'd like you to say that face to face with Hunter or a few others on those teams. You must have some type of insider information to be able to make such a statement. Or is it just more rhetoric to rip on Gardy that we should just accept as truth because you say so? Of course teams work their tails off all season to make the playoffs and then say, "Good enough, let's go home."
    Where's that damn Like feature when you need it.

  17. #77
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    I guess Gardy really wanted Correia bad!

  18. #78
    Senior Member Triple-A Jerr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
    I'm in the he's "stale" camp -- and it actually doesn't have a lot to do with Gardenhire himself. I believe (and believed this long before Gardenhire was hired) that most leaders have a "shelf life" of about 7-10 years, maybe a little longer. There is a reason for term limits in politics. There is a reason that the Methodist Church used to rotate ministers about every 7 years. I've seen it happen with school superintendents, hospital administrators and a number of other "leadership" positions. After a period of time, they seem to lose their effectiveness. It isn't that they are doing anything "wrong". It just becomes time for a new voice, new energy and a different leader. Sure there are exceptions but given the performance of this team the last 2 years, a leadership -- and culture -- change is needed.

    Well put and Gardy needs to be judged by how this team responds this year.
    If, they do poorly Gardy must leave, as it will show his shelf life has expired!
    That said, I hope Twins do well and he stays for their better years ahead.

  19. #79

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Physics Guy View Post
    Wow. Now that is a bold statement. I'd like you to say that face to face with Hunter or a few others on those teams. You must have some type of insider information to be able to make such a statement. Or is it just more rhetoric to rip on Gardy that we should just accept as truth because you say so? Of course teams work their tails off all season to make the playoffs and then say, "Good enough, let's go home."
    Not bold, there are more accurate mean words. I mean really, the payers hate him SO MUCH that they are just a few games from their goal and they all say 'nah, Gardy's a chump, let's tank this.' No one actually thinks anything of the sort happened. It's just fun sometimes to say outrageous things to get attention.

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