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Thread: What should Jamey Carroll's role be?

  1. #21
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    Exclamation

    Experience at AAA is overrated. Given the paucity of options at MI the Twins should give both Florimon and Dozier their "shot", if one guy stinks--replace him with Escobar and give him his chance. If both (or gag, all three) stink, hit the waiver wire in Summer and finish the season. Carroll is a UT guy, not the "next-in-line". The Twins played the merry-go-round in the infield for so many years with guys: Up/Down, Up/Down, it didn't work then and no reason to think it would work now given the age (mid-20's) of the players. If they fail--sign new people for next season and move on.

  2. #22
    Head Moderator All-Star glunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    I think that a rebuilding team cannot afford to have a 39 year old starter in any particular position. It is ok to have him around to rest the other guys and start across the infield 3-4 times a week.

    I really have no opinion on who should be the starting middle infielders (mainly because nobody sticks out from this bunch.) Let all 4 40-man players (Dozier, Escobar, Florimon, Santana) fight for it (maybe include Beresford from the non-roster invitees but not 31 year old Olmedo) and let the best 2 win.
    I like this analysis.

  3. #23
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    My hunch is that none of the Twin's current MI will be starting anywhere in two years, and if one of them is still consistently in the majors four years from now, they should out themselves fortunate. I hope I'm wrong about Dozier, or heck, all of them, but these guys have a body of work that is just not impressive and not one of them has a sure starting spot in what is one of the worst MI in the league. It's really amazing when you think about it.

    I think Carroll is the best and could start this year, but for reasons other posters mentioned, he should probably be playing as a utility player.

  4. #24
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    I feel that this year and possibly next will be the last two years of the middle infield issue. Hope by that time one of two things happen. Both Santana and Rosario are ready and able to contribe or Twins have gotten good enough to pay for a decent middle infielder at SS, because the rest of the team is ready to contend.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Triple-A mcrow's Avatar
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    I think Carroll's role will largely be defined by how Florimon and Dozier perform this spring. I think if they show they can be semi-competent Carroll will be a off-the-bench utility guy. The problem is that I think sometimes Gardy likes to give players too much of a leash.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    I must not be clear about my point on Dozier and Carroll. I'll summarize:

    I think Dozier can be a starting shortstop in the majors, at least for a short period of time while he's cheap. But last year he was overwhelmed in the majors, and overwhelmed in AAA, too, where he only had 200 AB. He needs time in AAA to develop. Then promote him and stick with him through some tough times. That time is not now. He's not ready. He has done NOTHING to prove he is ready.

    Carroll is a borderline guy - a great utility guy, a passable starting middle infielder. (He might not be a bad comp for Dozier, though I'm holding some hope Dozier can exceed that level.) I like Carroll. He shouldn't block anyone legitimate, but he's not an embarrassment.

    Which brings us to Florimon and Escobar. They aren't going to be passable as anything other than glove-only utility infielders. Neither is ever going to exceed Carroll's current level. Neither has done anything in their minor league history to indicate they can exceed Carroll's current level. I don't see any reason to play either in front of Carroll. The ONLY reason I see to start one of them is to give Dozier time in AAA.
    Carroll entering his age 24 season had just finished his age 23 season in A-ball with a slash line of 243/319/295. Escobar is entering his age 24 season with major league time, better minor league numbers and a better defensive reputation. Look at Punto's age 23 season and you will see something similar to Carroll.

    It is hard to have hope for Escobar with his performance through age 23, but to state so absolutely that he will never exceed Carroll current level shows little understanding of how a player grows from age 23 towards age 30.

    Who is most likely put up better offensive numbers in 2013?

    Who is most likely to be an asset to the next Twin playoff team?

    The Twins should invest plate appearances into the player they believe is the answer to the second question and trade the other for whatever they can get.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post

    Who is most likely put up better offensive numbers in 2013?

    Who is most likely to be an asset to the next Twin playoff team?

    The Twins should invest plate appearances into the player they believe is the answer to the second question and trade the other for whatever they can get.
    The answer to #1 is Carroll. I think the answer to #2 is none of the above. The MI needs to be the next issue they address, imo, while continuing to improve starting rotation, but at least there's something in the minors with regard to starters.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    The answer to #1 is Carroll. I think the answer to #2 is none of the above. The MI needs to be the next issue they address, imo, while continuing to improve starting rotation, but at least there's something in the minors with regard to starters.
    Unless the Twins assess that this is the next playoff team, it won't be Carroll.

    I only have reports of others (Baseball America, Minor League Analyst, Sickels) to describe Escobar's defensive ability. If the reports of his defense at three positions are correct, he will be a valuable member of a baseball team for several years.

    The Twins need to find the next Nick Punto or Jamey Carroll. It could be Escobar. If he follows a career path like Punto, Hocking or Carroll, his glove will get him in the league and his bat will make steady progress towards adequate.

    I guy like this is not a replacement level player. It is a myth that there a bunch of great glove no hit utility players are in the minors. In the Twins system currently, there may be two guys that profile in this type (Polanco and maybe Santana).

    It is worth investing some time in Escobar. If his glove is great, he is valuable now and his bat will get better over time.

  9. #29
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    I must not be clear about my point on Dozier and Carroll. I'll summarize:

    I think Dozier can be a starting shortstop in the majors, at least for a short period of time while he's cheap. But last year he was overwhelmed in the majors, and overwhelmed in AAA, too, where he only had 200 AB. He needs time in AAA to develop. Then promote him and stick with him through some tough times. That time is not now. He's not ready. He has done NOTHING to prove he is ready.

    Carroll is a borderline guy - a great utility guy, a passable starting middle infielder. (He might not be a bad comp for Dozier, though I'm holding some hope Dozier can exceed that level.) I like Carroll. He shouldn't block anyone legitimate, but he's not an embarrassment.

    Which brings us to Florimon and Escobar. They aren't going to be passable as anything other than glove-only utility infielders. Neither is ever going to exceed Carroll's current level. Neither has done anything in their minor league history to indicate they can exceed Carroll's current level. I don't see any reason to play either in front of Carroll. The ONLY reason I see to start one of them is to give Dozier time in AAA.
    I see your point of view. You could be right, largely on all of them, although I think Carroll is really past the point of being a passable big league starter.

    Just because you could be right, doesn't however, mean that you are or will be right. In Dozier's case, I don't really see much value in AAA. Even if he was rushed, now is his opportunity. If he can field like a big league MI, the Twins can put up with some ups and downs with the bat. Florimon showed in his short look last fall, that he can be a spectacular shortstop. His range and arm are at least the equal of Bartlett and his shortstop instincts seem better. Clearly, he needs to be more consistent, but if he can be, then the Twins will be willing to put up with a weak bat.

    Using Carroll to back up both makes sense to me. He will certainly get plenty of starts. If either hits a rough patch or suffers a minor injury, Carroll can hold the fort for awhile. Carroll really reminds me of Denny Hocking. A career utility guy who steady with the glove and could hit a bit, but really wasn't an everyday player.

    I don't know if either Florimon or Dozier is an everyday player in the big leagues either. But now is the time to find out. With Micheal, Santana, Rosario, Polanco and Goodrum in the minors, the Twins could find a solid or better starters in the near future. If Florimon and/or Dozier can prove to be big league quality middle leaguers, that has trade value. Even if they are only passable, they can hold the fort till better replacements are ready. If it turns out that they aren't really even Carroll good, well, now is the time to find out.
    Last edited by Jim H; 02-24-2013 at 05:47 PM.

  10. #30
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post
    I guy like this is not a replacement level player. It is a myth that there a bunch of great glove no hit utility players are in the minors. In the Twins system currently, there may be two guys that profile in this type (Polanco and maybe Santana)..
    I think Polanco profiles as a potential future starter. So does Amaurys Minier. Goodrum might be close too. But they all are years away at best.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
    I think Polanco profiles as a potential future starter. So does Amaurys Minier. Goodrum might be close too. But they all are years away at best.
    I hope Polanco is a starter. I wonder about his glove. He played mostly 2B last year. His glove was supposed to be his strength. Minier and Goodrum will probably not be shortstops at the major league level. Excellent defenders at multiple infield spots are hard to find. Escobar might be that guy. I hope they invest at bats into him this year.

  12. #32
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    Everyone keeps talking about Florimon at SS and Dozier at 2B but I'd prefer to see Escobar at SS and Carroll at 2B until Dozier can show offensive consistency at the AAA level. Florimon is athletic and has great range but I don't think he can last. All the numbers suggest he's going to struggle if handed the job. Escobar bring consistency to any position he fields.

  13. #33
    Senior Member All-Star Badsmerf's Avatar
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    Why do people keep raving about Florimon at SS? Is it the Twins and Gardy you are all believing? From watching him he looked average in all aspects of his game on the field, and inept at the plate. I don't get the love here. Its fine if everyone would rather see young guys than Carroll, even though Carroll will provide the best results while the Twins wait for someone with some actual talent to play SS. Escobar needs time in AAA. He needs to develop and gain some confidence. He hit .214 last season. It doesn't really matter how good he is with the glove if he is completely incapable at the plate. Hopefully the future will be Rosario at 2b and Santana at SS. For now Dozier might be able to sustain 2b until Rosario is ready.
    Do or do not. There is no try.

  14. #34
    Owner All-Star John Bonnes's Avatar
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    I'm really surprised by the "throw them all into the fire" attitude out here. I can understand that though process if either:
    1) a player has done all he can at AAA or
    2) a player is a highly regarded prospect who everyone is sure will develop.

    But neither of those is true for ANY of the younger players we're talking about. It feels like we're committed to breaking them just because we don't think there is anything better to do.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgenswest View Post
    Unless the Twins assess that this is the next playoff team, it won't be Carroll.

    I only have reports of others (Baseball America, Minor League Analyst, Sickels) to describe Escobar's defensive ability. If the reports of his defense at three positions are correct, he will be a valuable member of a baseball team for several years.

    The Twins need to find the next Nick Punto or Jamey Carroll. It could be Escobar. If he follows a career path like Punto, Hocking or Carroll, his glove will get him in the league and his bat will make steady progress towards adequate.

    I guy like this is not a replacement level player. It is a myth that there a bunch of great glove no hit utility players are in the minors. In the Twins system currently, there may be two guys that profile in this type (Polanco and maybe Santana).

    It is worth investing some time in Escobar. If his glove is great, he is valuable now and his bat will get better over time.
    Carroll was the answer to the best offensive numbers in 2013. He'll get plenty of time to put up numbers.

  16. #36
    The King In The North All-Star Nick Nelson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    I'm really surprised by the "throw them all into the fire" attitude out here. I can understand that though process if either:
    1) a player has done all he can at AAA or
    2) a player is a highly regarded prospect who everyone is sure will develop.

    But neither of those is true for ANY of the younger players we're talking about. It feels like we're committed to breaking them just because we don't think there is anything better to do.
    I assume you're referring to Dozier. He'll turn 26 in May; how much developing does he really have left to do? I think the Twins benefit more from taking a long look at him and seeing what's there, rather than delaying that process with more time at Triple-A. He's had his chance to shake out the MLB jitters, so if he fails again this year it's time to look for another solution.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
    I assume you're referring to Dozier. He'll turn 26 in May; how much developing does he really have left to do? I think the Twins benefit more from taking a long look at him and seeing what's there, rather than delaying that process with more time at Triple-A. He's had his chance to shake out the MLB jitters, so if he fails again this year it's time to look for another solution.
    Rosario could be here by the middle of next year(does well at Ft. Meyers and promoted this year to New Britian) It think it depends more on his glove work than his bat at this time. Assuming he makes it at New Britian this year, he would be at Rochester next year to start and then hopefully with the Twins. Santana is at New Britian this year and would probably start next year at Rochester. By the end of next year only one or at most two of the group will be with the Twins. We need to find out if any of the three can perform at the major league level.

  18. #38
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    I'm with Nick, let's see what they have. He's already in his prime....put them out there, and see if there is any hope for a future there or not. More time in the minors will show them nothing. Look at Slama, dominates AAA, but isn't called up because he's missing something. What would going to AAA and doing well do for a 26 year old?
    Lighten up Francis....

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bonnes View Post
    I'm really surprised by the "throw them all into the fire" attitude out here. I can understand that though process if either:
    1) a player has done all he can at AAA or
    2) a player is a highly regarded prospect who everyone is sure will develop.

    But neither of those is true for ANY of the younger players we're talking about. It feels like we're committed to breaking them just because we don't think there is anything better to do.
    I can't believe that anyone believes Dozier should be thrown to the wolves AGAIN. We saw how that turned out last time. Give the guy reps in Rochester.

  20. #40
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    I get not blocking or traumatizing Dozier, there is a glimmer of promise, but are we seriously concerned with the playing time and stunting the development of Florimon and Escobar because they MAY have the ceiling of annual whipping boy Nick Punto? Why aren't we aiming higher? Likely decent men the both, but at the MLB level, talent-wise there is very little to damage.

    If both profile to be future utility players at best, why would we be thinking about giving them a STARTING gig right now? Give it to Carroll, he provides the one offensive bonus the Twins could hope for from the position, a reasonable OBP. This argument will only be legit if we are having it about rushing/promoting Santana in July.

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