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Thread: Article: How MLB Teams Rebuild - Part 2

  1. #21
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    Maybe Willingham is a "Twins Guy" because of his performance on and off the field. Armchair GMs love to talk "deals" because it is a far more interesting subject than "keep him". I can envision Twins team next year with: (3 of the four) Arcia, Benson, Hicks, and Mastroianni starting, Parmalee at 1B, and Willingham DH. Doumit is the #2 C, #2 DH, #2PH, and emergency elsewhere and Drew Butera is not in a Twins uniform. Josh can still make his contributions offensively, will be less subject to injury. The offense is improved, the defense is improved, and the payroll reduced to the point that a premier FA can be signed to plug one of the remaining gaping holes. 2014 wouldn't be up to playoff standards, but will be far more entertaining than '11, '12, and '13 combined and will illustrate that there truly is light at the end of the tunnel.

  2. #22
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    Maybe Willingham is a "Twins Guy" because of his performance on and off the field.
    So is Morneau. So was Kubel. So was Cuddyer. So was Torii. So was Johan. So was Span. The point is, Willingham SHOULD be moved if the offers are good. He's not going to be part of this team's long term success in all likelihood. I wouldn't advocate getting lowballed, but his availability should be well known around the league when we approach the deadline.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    The point was not one about return, it was one of philosophy. The Twins bristle at the suggestion that they should trade people, whether they are in contention or not. They also appear to have little qualms with letting guys walk no matter how vital to the clubhouse or how good they are at playing the Twins Way. (Cuddyer alone proves this) So it always bothers me when I hear Ryan or others suggest the reasons not to deal a guy like Willingham is because he is their kind of guy. We've let our kind of guy walk more than a few times - the reason to move or not move a player should have nothing to do with that. And they should understand when fans get irritated by this organization's bluster about trading (See: "Getting X player back from injury is just like making a trade!" or the annual stand-pat at the deadline approach) when they so flippantly seem to release guys that are heart and soul members of the team.

    It's hard to assess whether a team should or shouldn't sell the whole lot to rebuild, I think that depends on offers being received we know nothing about. But that was the general point being made here: do you sell off completely or half-ass it? What I don't want to see is a half-ass approach because Willingham is a "Twin's Guy" rather than the team being low-balled.
    Trades like Milton, Aggie, Hanson, A.J. and many others didn't happen because that is not the Twins way? If Berrios and the other drafted player works out, then letting Cuddyer walk was a great move. Any idea if Kubel and Cuddyer were shopped around? Was there a good offer? Nobody talked. The Twins way is the Pohlad way. Get people to work cheaply. Buy low, sell high.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    Trades like Milton, Aggie, Hanson, A.J. and many others didn't happen because that is not the Twins way? If Berrios and the other drafted player works out, then letting Cuddyer walk was a great move. Any idea if Kubel and Cuddyer were shopped around? Was there a good offer? Nobody talked. The Twins way is the Pohlad way. Get people to work cheaply. Buy low, sell high.
    Um, that has not been what they've done well for a long time. As I specifically said, ultimately as fans we don't know what's on the table when we speculate about these subjects, so no use pretending otherwise or using that as a club to bat a skeptic over the head. We're all ignorant so that talking point is irrelevant.

    AJ and Milton were almost ten years ago. This team has let far more players walk then they have traded them in walk years. They even managed to half-ass their way with the Johan situation into completely destroying their leverage. The Span and Revere deals were nice, I hope they understand the same idea can work for their two prime trade candidates this year and aren't shy about shopping. I'm not convinced about what is most important to this club: "Twins Way" or value. The Revere deal encourages me, but Willingham being talked about as a "core" player does not.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Um, that has not been what they've done well for a long time. As I specifically said, ultimately as fans we don't know what's on the table when we speculate about these subjects, so no use pretending otherwise or using that as a club to bat a skeptic over the head. We're all ignorant so that talking point is irrelevant.

    AJ and Milton were almost ten years ago. This team has let far more players walk then they have traded them in walk years. They even managed to half-ass their way with the Johan situation into completely destroying their leverage. The Span and Revere deals were nice, I hope they understand the same idea can work for their two prime trade candidates this year and aren't shy about shopping. I'm not convinced about what is most important to this club: "Twins Way" or value. The Revere deal encourages me, but Willingham being talked about as a "core" player does not.
    Not knowing what has gone on have never stopped people from speculating. While some trades may have been 10 years ago, don't forget that Ryan took a few year vacation. Smith was so bad at negotiating trades that the Twins were better off testing their luck with the draft. Travis Harrison for Orlando Hudson might be a great move. Hudson Boyd for Crain another good move. The damage done by Smith's ineptness at trades reallly led the club to where they are today.

  6. #26
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    Not knowing what has gone on have never stopped people from speculating.
    The point is, we're all speculating - good or bad. Hell, we could praise a great trade like Revere's and not know about an even better offer that was out there. We have to just accept we are conversing with a significant ignorance at play and not consider that an argument against a position as you tried to employ it.

    Smith's ineptness at trades reallly led the club to where they are today.
    And, if you give him total blame for that, give him total credit for where this club is going with the prospects drafted under his supervision. Johan, for example, is almost completely Ryan's fault. He made that situation what it was and has set the standard for poor contract negotiation strategy for this franchise. All I'm saying is, with this team rebuilding (and it is, despite the bluster in public) I hope they aren't gun-shy about trading people. The rewards for releasing FA are no longer as bountiful as they once were and the option to trade should be explored more effectively mid-season by this team than it has. I hope this year we see that.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    The point is, we're all speculating - good or bad. Hell, we could praise a great trade like Revere's and not know about an even better offer that was out there. We have to just accept we are conversing with a significant ignorance at play and not consider that an argument against a position as you tried to employ it.



    And, if you give him total blame for that, give him total credit for where this club is going with the prospects drafted under his supervision. Johan, for example, is almost completely Ryan's fault. He made that situation what it was and has set the standard for poor contract negotiation strategy for this franchise. All I'm saying is, with this team rebuilding (and it is, despite the bluster in public) I hope they aren't gun-shy about trading people. The rewards for releasing FA are no longer as bountiful as they once were and the option to trade should be explored more effectively mid-season by this team than it has. I hope this year we see that.

    Brother Levi admits ignorance. I'll be darned.
    Santana still had a full season of control by the Twins when Ryan left.. Could have Ryan fixed it? yes. The end falls to Smith.

    Mediocre players will bring mediocre prospects. Players with faults will no bring top prospects. If you have what someone needs, then you can get a return. What there used to be return for soon to be free agents will be less as there is not much compensation to be leveraged.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    Brother Levi admits ignorance. I'll be darned.
    All fans are in ignorance, I get annoyed when it becomes a tool of argument.

    Santana still had a full season of control by the Twins when Ryan left.. Could have Ryan fixed it? yes. The end falls to Smith.
    The end that falls on Smith was completely set up by Ryan stripping all leverage from him. That was Ryan's problem that many fans still wrongly blame Smith for.

    The beauty of Willingham is that there is still team control. I am very, very eager to see if the Twins do the right thing and move him this season. And I'm hoping they shop him aggressively and wisely - last year I get the impression it was lip-service or the demands were ridiculous.

  9. #29
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    So they promote the special advisor of all the bad trades Bill Smith made?
    Well 1 reason would be because ownership wanted to return to dumpster diving.
    As for bill he deserves credit for getting us into the international market , and most of our top prospects were signed under Bill.

    When Mr. Ryan was brought back under the imtrem title, i was hoping his job would be to find a quality replacement to be the new G.M. But once i saw how he low balled all 4 of the free agents, I knew he was here to cut payroll....

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    All fans are in ignorance, I get annoyed when it becomes a tool of argument.



    The end that falls on Smith was completely set up by Ryan stripping all leverage from him. That was Ryan's problem that many fans still wrongly blame Smith for.

    The beauty of Willingham is that there is still team control. I am very, very eager to see if the Twins do the right thing and move him this season. And I'm hoping they shop him aggressively and wisely - last year I get the impression it was lip-service or the demands were ridiculous.
    Decent return for trades happen all the time in the last year of a contract of a soon to be free agent. Skill in negotiation, be it a trade or a contract, is the key for a return. The could have asked for 2 good prospects and that kind poor pitcher named Nova in the low minors, and a flier on another

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnydakota View Post
    So they promote the special advisor of all the bad trades Bill Smith made?
    Well 1 reason would be because ownership wanted to return to dumpster diving.
    As for bill he deserves credit for getting us into the international market , and most of our top prospects were signed under Bill.

    When Mr. Ryan was brought back under the imtrem title, i was hoping his job would be to find a quality replacement to be the new G.M. But once i saw how he low balled all 4 of the free agents, I knew he was here to cut payroll....
    "
    All fans are in ignorance, I get annoyed when it becomes a tool of argument."

    Brother Leviathan said that, now I really understand what he meant

  12. #32
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    Exclamation

    I wish to jump into this diatribe. The Twins did not have a year's control of Santana before he was traded. Ryan "stepped down" in September '07 and Santana was traded in the off-season between '07 and '08, about December '07. A poor result, or just a bad trade? Right now that point is moot. Compare to the result of Hunter leaving via free agency at the end of '07. The Twins did recieve a draft pick. Which end result was better for the Twins? Trade or Draft compensation?

    The Twins traded Delmon Young. I guess the only positive for the Twins was the salary saved--which doesn't benefit the fans at all.

    Ryan traded Luis Castillo in July '06 for Drew Butera and another Catcher (both were MiLers at the time), gave Casilla his (first of many) chance to be the next Twins 2B. Or should the Twins have just kept Castillo?

    Kubel had been mentioned as a trade candidate--problem was he was on the DL at the time and couldn't have been traded!

    Cuddyer. True he was a candidate for trade. I don't know if he was offered (he likely was) and who was offered as compensation. I do recall he basically played every game as one of the very few major league players regularly in the line-up. Twins fans were pretty much forced to watch a minor league team as the 2011 season closed with Cuddyer as the lone "name". Uff Da.

    We read last year that everybody including Mauer was made available in August--but there were no deals made. Hmm, maybe our favorites aren't as highly sought by other teams, as many Twins fans think? I don't think Morneau should be part of the 2014 Twins. But I definately would rather watch him finish 2013 as a Twin than have him be traded for the next Jim Hoey.

    I have already stated my position about Willingham, so I won't repeat it.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    Decent return for trades happen all the time in the last year of a contract of a soon to be free agent. Skill in negotiation, be it a trade or a contract, is the key for a return. The could have asked for 2 good prospects and that kind poor pitcher named Nova in the low minors, and a flier on another
    I'm sorry, but you clearly don't understand the position he was put in. He should've kept Santana and taken the picks, but again, he was handed a basket of crap in that situation and, not surprisingly, wound up the same in the trade.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    Which end result was better for the Twins? Trade or Draft compensation?

    We read last year that everybody including Mauer was made available in August--but there were no deals made.
    Being bad at trading for value mid-season doesn't exactly make for a strong counter-point. Again, if my point is that their approach to it needs work, you just basically made my point.

    As for "making everyone available" - the only thing we know about Willingham being shopped is that they were asking for big league starting pitching. It's a bit silly to ask a team competing that wants to add a big bat to deal from their current rotation to do it. That's a sure-fire way to make a trade not happen.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    I'm sorry, but you clearly don't understand the position he was put in. He should've kept Santana and taken the picks, but again, he was handed a basket of crap in that situation and, not surprisingly, wound up the same in the trade.
    We will have to disagree. There is your view of the situation with your spin. Basket of crap? There are people on this board who insist that Santana would have resigned here if only offered the money. It was announced that Ryan was stepping down in September, during the season, after the trade deadline. Again, spin it any way you want.

    To the other guy, SSantana signed a 4 year contract in 2005. So Santana had one year left on a contract when traded.

  16. #36
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    The Twins traded Delmon Young. I guess the only positive for the Twins was the salary saved--which doesn't benefit the fans at all.
    Not having to watch him was a benefit to the fans.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ball… and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
    Not having to watch him was a benefit to the fans.
    More food for all of us too.
    Works on contingency? No, money down!
    Kevin Slowey was Framed!

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