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Thread: 25-man roster set

  1. #21
    Senior Member Double-A Lesser Dali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
    LOL, the mythical legend of ol' Drew, working miracles with pitchers. Just seeing Drew behind that mask is enough to inspire confidence in any pitcher on the mound.

    No, but seriously, do you have any data to back up this claim that Butera is some greek god at "working with pitchers"?
    Because WAR takes both offense and defense (and baserunning) into account, and Butera is a negative WAR player.
    Hello Mr. Brooks. Are you a man of religious faith?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    19 ABs decided that huh? I'm not saying he is or isn't, but that's pretty flimsy evidence.
    Not evidence he belongs. Not proof he can't be. He hasn't played above AA. His AA numbers were pedestrian. That would be more of an indication he might not be much better than Butera. Problem is how is he as a catcher? If he was great as a catcher, why was he in the outfield?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Not evidence he belongs. Not proof he can't be. He hasn't played above AA. His AA numbers were pedestrian. That would be more of an indication he might not be much better than Butera. Problem is how is he as a catcher? If he was great as a catcher, why was he in the outfield?
    But that is the problem. You are trying to get someone to say he can be a good hitter, or a good catcher.
    He doesn't need to be either, to be an insurance policy if Mauer or Doumit get hurt.
    Again, Drew Butera is a negative WAR player. Hermann would only need to be replacement level to be a fairly big upgrade over Butera.
    And I'm not saying he even needs to be an upgrade, which lowers the standards significantly.
    All he needs to do is "not be any worse" than Butera, which is not a very high standard.
    By definition, Hermann is pretty much a replacement level player.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
    LOL, the mythical legend of ol' Drew, working miracles with pitchers. Just seeing Drew behind that mask is enough to inspire confidence in any pitcher on the mound.

    No, but seriously, do you have any data to back up this claim that Butera is some greek god at "working with pitchers"?
    Because WAR takes both offense and defense (and baserunning) into account, and Butera is a negative WAR player.
    You could do he research yourself and find out if there was a difference in the ERA of the staff when Butera pitch versus not. What part of pitch selection is figured into WAR? What part of framing to get more strikes is figured into WAR? There is a lot more that goes on in a game than is computed by WAR.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Not evidence he belongs. Not proof he can't be. He hasn't played above AA. His AA numbers were pedestrian. That would be more of an indication he might not be much better than Butera. Problem is how is he as a catcher? If he was great as a catcher, why was he in the outfield?
    Pedestrian, sure. But also 140 points of OPS better than Butera's AA numbers.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    You could do he research yourself and find out if there was a difference in the ERA of the staff when Butera pitch versus not. What part of pitch selection is figured into WAR? What part of framing to get more strikes is figured into WAR? There is a lot more that goes on in a game than is computed by WAR.
    Butera was shown to be a negative value catcher at framing pitches.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    You could do he research yourself and find out if there was a difference in the ERA of the staff when Butera pitch versus not. What part of pitch selection is figured into WAR? What part of framing to get more strikes is figured into WAR? There is a lot more that goes on in a game than is computed by WAR.
    I'm not the one making the claim that Butera is great at working with pitchers, why do I have to do the research? Typically the burden of proof is on the person making the claim.

    There are far too many variables to suggest that pitcher ERA is an accurate reflection of a catchers ability.

  8. #28
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    I'm not a hardcore stats geek. I have no idea how WAR is calculated, so I'm not even going to attempt to make any argument against it. I don't know which stats to look at to best analyze his defensive abilities alone, since a lot of the traditional stats like Assists, Put-outs, and errors are not really going to give much insight into a player's catching ability.

    Most of what I have to say about Butera is what I have personally witnessed, and what I have heard people talk about. I personally saw him catch a lot over the last two years, and it seemed like most of the time our pitchers were very comfortable with him. There didn't seem to be many passed balls, not many guys stealing on him, not too much confusion between the pitcher and catcher. Based on my personal observations, purely in terms of defensive ability, I think Butera is a far better catcher than Doumit.

    I know his bat sucks, and this was a very big issue in 2011 (when he caught nearly twice as many games as Mauer), but that was also a year where we only had 4 guys hit over .280 for the season, and two of those were Parmelee (21 games) and Dinkelman (23 games).

    If you look at his stats from 2010 and 2012, where he was used as a backup and not as our main catcher, his defensive value seems to balance out his offensive struggles much better (as far as I can tell from the advanced stats. Again, don't fully understand them)

    It seems like all our Italian guys may fall into the Punto role... great guys in a backup role, but inspiring fan outrage when put into a starting role.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Double-A Lesser Dali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Not evidence he belongs. Not proof he can't be. He hasn't played above AA. His AA numbers were pedestrian. That would be more of an indication he might not be much better than Butera. Problem is how is he as a catcher? If he was great as a catcher, why was he in the outfield?
    Not to steal this opportunity from Leviathan, but versatility leads to a better MLB opportunity, especially when you are athletic and able to play catcher and another position worthwhile.

    Maybe Herrmann does not project a starter in the Bigs, but let's not fool ourselves with the notion that Herrmann's bat doesn't trump Butera's bat 10 fold.

    Butera might call a good game and work well with pitchers, but if you can't handle the bat and you are not a pitcher, you do not belong in the Bigs. Butera has been an awful hitter at every level.

    Maybe Butera should play the role of a good organizational man, do his due diligence at AAA, I would imagine there is a role waiting for him in the organization as a coach.

    Who knows - someday he may end up being pitching coach or even manager of the MN Twins.
    Last edited by Lesser Dali; 03-29-2013 at 08:32 PM.

  10. #30
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Not evidence he belongs. Not proof he can't be. He hasn't played above AA. His AA numbers were pedestrian. That would be more of an indication he might not be much better than Butera. Problem is how is he as a catcher? If he was great as a catcher, why was he in the outfield?
    If you're looking three or four spots down on most team's catcher depth chart you're not going to find great players. The point is about the 40 man roster, which probably doesn't require us to keep all of Pinto, Butera, and Hermann. Butera seems like a logical waive.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
    LOL, the mythical legend of ol' Drew, working miracles with pitchers. Just seeing Drew behind that mask is enough to inspire confidence in any pitcher on the mound.

    No, but seriously, do you have any data to back up this claim that Butera is some greek god at "working with pitchers"?
    Because WAR takes both offense and defense (and baserunning) into account, and Butera is a negative WAR player.
    I rate that right behind "pitch framing" for red herring of the off season.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by spideyo View Post
    I'm not a hardcore stats geek. I have no idea how WAR is calculated, so I'm not even going to attempt to make any argument against it. I don't know which stats to look at to best analyze his defensive abilities alone, since a lot of the traditional stats like Assists, Put-outs, and errors are not really going to give much insight into a player's catching ability.

    Most of what I have to say about Butera is what I have personally witnessed, and what I have heard people talk about. I personally saw him catch a lot over the last two years, and it seemed like most of the time our pitchers were very comfortable with him. There didn't seem to be many passed balls, not many guys stealing on him, not too much confusion between the pitcher and catcher. Based on my personal observations, purely in terms of defensive ability, I think Butera is a far better catcher than Doumit.

    I know his bat sucks, and this was a very big issue in 2011 (when he caught nearly twice as many games as Mauer), but that was also a year where we only had 4 guys hit over .280 for the season, and two of those were Parmelee (21 games) and Dinkelman (23 games).

    If you look at his stats from 2010 and 2012, where he was used as a backup and not as our main catcher, his defensive value seems to balance out his offensive struggles much better (as far as I can tell from the advanced stats. Again, don't fully understand them)

    It seems like all our Italian guys may fall into the Punto role... great guys in a backup role, but inspiring fan outrage when put into a starting role.
    I'm not saying I have a problem with him being in the organization, I think some might be misinterpreting my attitude about him.
    I'm simply saying it's no big loss if a team were to claim him.

  13. #33
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
    Butera was shown to be a negative value catcher at framing pitches.
    Shush. Stop that. We all know Butera is teh bestest catcher in the whole wide world.

    After all, something has to offset that historically bad bat.

    (for the record, I'm not claiming Butera is a bad catcher... I actually think he's quite good... but it would take a legendary glove to offset his offensive deficiencies)

  14. #34
    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    Wow! I should have known when I started this thread that it would turn into a "flame Butera" thread.

    My bad.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbknudson View Post
    Wow! I should have known when I started this thread that it would turn into a "flame Butera" thread.

    My bad.
    For the record, I wasnt intending to "flame" Butera.
    All I said was, why are we so concerned about losing him? And was then bombarded by people telling me how great he is, and how our organization couldn't handle losing a player like him.

  16. #36
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbknudson View Post
    Wow! I should have known when I started this thread that it would turn into a "flame Butera" thread.

    My bad.
    I'm not flaming Butera, I'm just acknowledging that overall, he's not a very good MLB player. He's just fine in AAA to be called up in a pinch but anything more than that, not so much.

    If the rest of the team is good, I don't even mind him being the 25th man on the bench. I don't think it's a terribly smart move but I don't care about the 25th man much, period.

  17. #37
    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    I'm not flaming Butera, I'm just acknowledging that overall, he's not a very good MLB player. He's just fine in AAA to be called up in a pinch but anything more than that, not so much.

    If the rest of the team is good, I don't even mind him being the 25th man on the bench. I don't think it's a terribly smart move but I don't care about the 25th man much, period.
    I wasn't referring specifically to you - yours just happened to be the last post when I got back tonight and revisited the thread.

    I just still get surprised at the amount of passion people have about Butera, one way or another. It's is if he's a lightning rod that draws attention. Personally I don't think his presence on the roster (25-man or 40-man) or otherwise deserve the amount of space it often gets in these forums. Just my opinion.

  18. #38
    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
    For the record, I wasnt intending to "flame" Butera.
    All I said was, why are we so concerned about losing him? And was then bombarded by people telling me how great he is, and how our organization couldn't handle losing a player like him.
    If I was specifically responding to you, I would have quoted you like I do here. Relax! Enjoy life!

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
    I'm not the one making the claim that Butera is great at working with pitchers, why do I have to do the research? Typically the burden of proof is on the person making the claim.

    There are far too many variables to suggest that pitcher ERA is an accurate reflection of a catchers ability.
    You can do the research to further your claims about Butera. You are the one claiming he doesn't belong on a major league roster. If you want to claim Hermann would be better at playing 40 games a year than Butera than it is on you to provide other than being better at batting that Hermann would be a better catcher.
    My responses are not so much as support for Butera as it is the notion that Hermann is anywhere near ready is not a good idea.
    Last edited by old nurse; 03-29-2013 at 10:23 PM.

  20. #40
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Oh, yay, arguments using solely WAR as the only stat/criteria used. What could possibly be wrong with that logic.

    Also as far as Butera vs Burnett goes, at least Butera fills in at a position the Twins are currently very very shallow in, I have hopes for hermanamnamnamnamnanan as well but he isn't ready and continues to need every day at bats, if Doumit/Mauer goes down for a few days having Butera on the roster isn't going to kill anyone, on the opposite side of things, if there is one thing the Twins do have an abudnace over (other then high upside CF) is relief arms who may be capable. Burnett had his chance, and honestly, within 3 months would have been ridiculously far down on the Twins depth chart regardless.

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