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Thread: 25-man roster set

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    You can do the research to further your claims about Butera. You are the one claiming he doesn't belong on a major league roster. If you want to claim Hermann would be better at playing 40 games a year than Butera than it is on you to provide other than being better at batting that Hermann would be a better catcher.
    My responses are not so much as support for Butera as it is the notion that Hermann is anywhere near ready is not a good idea.
    I made neither claim.

    I said that it's no big loss if someone were to claim him, NEVER said he didn't belong.
    I said Hermann could come up in an emergency, and not be any worse, never said he was better right now.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    Oh, yay, arguments using solely WAR as the only stat/criteria used. What could possibly be wrong with that logic.

    Also as far as Butera vs Burnett goes, at least Butera fills in at a position the Twins are currently very very shallow in, I have hopes for hermanamnamnamnamnanan as well but he isn't ready and continues to need every day at bats, if Doumit/Mauer goes down for a few days having Butera on the roster isn't going to kill anyone, on the opposite side of things, if there is one thing the Twins do have an abudnace over (other then high upside CF) is relief arms who may be capable. Burnett had his chance, and honestly, within 3 months would have been ridiculously far down on the Twins depth chart regardless.
    I agree with all of that.
    Losing Burnett is no big loss, but neither would be losing Butera.
    That is all I said, some people are making that statement out to be more than it is.

    And Butera is never coming up "for a few days". Once he comes up, he stays. That is not speculation, there is evidence of that.

  3. #43
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    Wait I missed something, did Butera make the 25 man roster? This thread has hit 3 pages of angst about a catcher who will be making 750k in AAA. I'll be really surprised if he's offered arbitration this offseason as his salary will likely double, and quite frankly I don't get the fascination with Herman, nor is he ready. I'm fine with Drew in AAA, and I doubt Burnet will be an org regret. He put up some sick numbers in the minors a few years back and never did anything since (including in AAA). The guy I think this org will regret is when Slama leaves as a minor league FA and ends up with a team like Tampa Bay.

  4. #44
    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post
    The guy I think this org will regret is when Slama leaves as a minor league FA and ends up with a team like Tampa Bay.
    At the risk of taking this thread into an entirely different hot-button issue, why do you think they will regret losing Slama? I know he has had great minor league numbers, but he was mostly ineffective in the two major league stints he had, and he did absolutely nothing this spring to show it would be any different the next time. If I had to choose which was the most likely scenario between
    A) Slama becomes a free agent, goes somewhere else, and becomes a staple of a major league bullpen, and
    B) Slama becomes a free agent, goes somewhere else, and never successfully makes the transition to the big leagues and ends his career as a (very successful) minor league pitcher,

    I'd have to put my money on B.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post

    Also as far as Butera vs Burnett goes, at least Butera fills in at a position the Twins are currently very very shallow in...
    Not to resume rubbing salt in old wounds from past battles, but you called for my banning (and other colorful adjectives, as well), when I pointed out this very thing, ie, the Twins extreme lack of quality depth at the position and seeming indifference at improving the situation at a level at least one step above the likes of Eric Fryer. To reiterate, Mauer is going to need a new position at some point and Doumit won't be around much longer, they have to do something better than the current, status quo (lack of) depth chart.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbknudson View Post
    At the risk of taking this thread into an entirely different hot-button issue, why do you think they will regret losing Slama? I know he has had great minor league numbers, but he was mostly ineffective in the two major league stints he had, and he did absolutely nothing this spring to show it would be any different the next time. If I had to choose which was the most likely scenario between
    A) Slama becomes a free agent, goes somewhere else, and becomes a staple of a major league bullpen, and
    B) Slama becomes a free agent, goes somewhere else, and never successfully makes the transition to the big leagues and ends his career as a (very successful) minor league pitcher,

    I'd have to put my money on B.
    Slama has a grand total of 7 MLB innings pitched. That is far too small of a sample size to glean anything from.

  7. #47
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    Don't want to get too caught up in this argument, but just thought I'd point something out: using WAR to define a catcher's value is even more problematic for catchers than it is for other position players. fWAR, for example, uses UZR defensive metrics. The problem? There is no UZR data for catchers. Basically, they've just decided it's too hard to rate a catcher, and they use only stolen base data and passed ball data to arrive at a catcher's defensive "worth" rather than trying to use pbp data. If you're familiar at all with me, you know I consider UZR (and by extension, WAR) to be basically useless, but that's not my point here. Even if you love WAR, it would seem to me it's dangerous in the extreme to put much stock in the numbers for catchers.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Don't want to get too caught up in this argument, but just thought I'd point something out: using WAR to define a catcher's value is even more problematic for catchers than it is for other position players. fWAR, for example, uses UZR defensive metrics. The problem? There is no UZR data for catchers. Basically, they've just decided it's too hard to rate a catcher, and they use only stolen base data and passed ball data to arrive at a catcher's defensive "worth" rather than trying to use pbp data. If you're familiar at all with me, you know I consider UZR (and by extension, WAR) to be basically useless, but that's not my point here. Even if you love WAR, it would seem to me it's dangerous in the extreme to put much stock in the numbers for catchers.
    I agree.
    Catcher defense is tough to put a value on.
    However, the 2 primary areas that defensive WAR looks at for catcher, as you point out, are baserunning and passed balls, which are Butera's biggest strengths.
    Based on that, IMO, WAR gives Butera the benefit of the doubt. If anything, his actual value is even less than his WAR would suggest.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
    I agree.
    Catcher defense is tough to put a value on.
    However, the 2 primary areas that defensive WAR looks at for catcher, as you point out, are baserunning and passed balls, which are Butera's biggest strengths.
    Based on that, IMO, WAR gives Butera the benefit of the doubt. If anything, his actual value is even less than his WAR would suggest.
    Hadn't thought of that, and that's a good point. BTW, in case there's any doubt about my position on this, Butera on the roster as a 3rd catcher makes me want to poke my eyes out.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
    I agree.
    Catcher defense is tough to put a value on.
    However, the 2 primary areas that defensive WAR looks at for catcher, as you point out, are baserunning and passed balls, which are Butera's biggest strengths.
    Based on that, IMO, WAR gives Butera the benefit of the doubt. If anything, his actual value is even less than his WAR would suggest.
    Even given the murky nature of WAR for catchers, Butera had a terrible CS rate (23%), virtually the same as Doumit's (21%), but significantly better than Mauer's (14%).

    In passed balls, Butera had 4 in 292 innings, Doumit 2 in 492 and Mauer 1 in 628.

    Time for the mythologists to begin the spinning of Butera's alleged defensive prowess, I can't see how WAR gives Butera the benefit of the doubt, at least for 2012, anyway.

  11. #51
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    Both Burnett and Butera are below replacement level. I wouldn't be surprised if Butera is traded when they need to make room on the 40 man for Deduno. I say that because it doesn't make sense to DFA him if someone will give us something for him. And, according to Rosenthal, several teams have expressed interest.

    I don't think the Twins have depth problems at the position. Hermann is a solid option as a third catcher/spare outfielder/bench bat. The only reason they sent him out early was to get him more at bats. Fryer is probably better than Rivera was last year. And Rohlfing has shown comparable versatility to Hermann. We're talking about maybe 120 PAs over the course of a season. That's not going to be the difference maker in any season.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Both Burnett and Butera are below replacement level. I wouldn't be surprised if Butera is traded when they need to make room on the 40 man for Deduno. I say that because it doesn't make sense to DFA him if someone will give us something for him. And, according to Rosenthal, several teams have expressed interest.

    I don't think the Twins have depth problems at the position. Hermann is a solid option as a third catcher/spare outfielder/bench bat. The only reason they sent him out early was to get him more at bats. Fryer is probably better than Rivera was last year. And Rohlfing has shown comparable versatility to Hermann. We're talking about maybe 120 PAs over the course of a season. That's not going to be the difference maker in any season.
    Not to nitpick, but Burnett is exactly at replacement level (fangraphs) or slightly above (BBR).

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post

    I don't think the Twins have depth problems at the position. Hermann is a solid option as a third catcher/spare outfielder/bench bat. The only reason they sent him out early was to get him more at bats. Fryer is probably better than Rivera was last year. And Rohlfing has shown comparable versatility to Hermann. We're talking about maybe 120 PAs over the course of a season. That's not going to be the difference maker in any season.
    "Solid"? I gotta think the Twins are banking on Herrmann to have a breakthrough season, get plenty of AAA experience, and in the process, look less lost than he did last September and this spring before they move him up again. He certainly won't make any improvements rotting on the bench at the major league level.

  14. #54
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    I wouldn't be surprised to read later this season that Doumit is traded and Butera has been promoted to the alternate Catcher for the Twins.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised to read later this season that Doumit is traded and Butera has been promoted to the alternate Catcher for the Twins.
    Who would be?

  16. #56
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    Gawd. Three pages on Burnett and mostly Butera. Some people must need the regular season to start. The alternative idea could get one banned

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    "Solid"? I gotta think the Twins are banking on Herrmann to have a breakthrough season, get plenty of AAA experience, and in the process, look less lost than he did last September and this spring before they move him up again. He certainly won't make any improvements rotting on the bench at the major league level.
    I think someone earlier was shredded for passing an opinion on Hermann based on the last year's performance in the majors.
    Leviathan must like you.
    Last edited by The Wise One; 03-30-2013 at 06:09 PM.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wise One View Post
    I think someone earlier was shredded for passing an opinion on Hermann based on the last year's performance in the majors.
    Leviathan must like you.
    So you're arguing the opposite?- that Hermann is "solidly" ready to contribute at the major league level? If true, please cite your evidence that this is, in fact the case.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbknudson View Post
    At the risk of taking this thread into an entirely different hot-button issue, why do you think they will regret losing Slama? I know he has had great minor league numbers, but he was mostly ineffective in the two major league stints he had, and he did absolutely nothing this spring to show it would be any different the next time. If I had to choose which was the most likely scenario between
    A) Slama becomes a free agent, goes somewhere else, and becomes a staple of a major league bullpen, and
    B) Slama becomes a free agent, goes somewhere else, and never successfully makes the transition to the big leagues and ends his career as a (very successful) minor league pitcher,

    I'd have to put my money on B.
    Slama had 4 2/3 innings in 2010 and 2 1/3 inning in 2011. Are you seriously basing your conclusion on a grand total of 7 innings over 2 seasons? Given the state of the bullpen the last two years and the state of the Twins org during that same time frame, Slama should have been given every opportuntity to earn a spot, especially over the likes of Jeff Gray. I'm not going to pretend that he's the next Joe Nathan or anything like that, but the one thing he has done is put up gaudy stats at every stop, and has had no problems getting strike outs, only to get crapped on by this organization.

    He's one of the few people in the high minors that has a chance to be a good late inning reliever. Why he has not gotten an extended trial, especially by a terrible team is beyond me.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehardtwinsfan View Post

    He's one of the few people in the high minors that has a chance to be a good late inning reliever. Why he has not gotten an extended trial, especially by a terrible team is beyond me.
    I hold no illusions about Slama's possibilites for success (there is certainly only one way to find out!), but I do know that the Twins fall in love with characteristics that certain guys possess- like Burnett and Gray- and keep forcing the issue in the face of all the evidence- until they finally admit defeat. It's now gotten to the point that if Slama were to be successful on a sustained call-up, it would mean even more embarrassment for the organization that is on record belittling his minor league performance.

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