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Thread: Who is coming up first from Rochester?

  1. #21
    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim H View Post
    Since Mauer is the team's best hitter, he needs to be in the lineup as much as possible. Last year Doumit was the team's 5th best hitter so he needs to be in the lineup most of the time as well. It is likely that the best lineup the Twins can field has Mauer at catcher. But he can't catch every game. Mauer will catch as many games as he can, but the goal is to have him in the lineup nearly everyday. Since he can be used at 1B, DH and even RF, you can get him in the lineup as often as he is physically up to it.

    Having Butera catch, doesn't have to take either Doumit or Mauer out of the lineup. If Morneau needs a day off, Mauer can go to 1B. Doumit can be at DH or even RF. Gardy was actually a bit creative at times last year. Nearly always, one of Mauer or Doumit was in the lineup with Butera, sometimes both. So that is what I mean when I said Butera didn't take AB's from Mauer or Doumit. It is possible that by keeping both fresher, his presence on the roster gave both more AB's than if he wasn't there. Because of their versatility and Gardy's willingness to use them at other positions than just catcher and DH.

    The other aspect of this is that Butera probably doesn't take AB's from other regulars either. Morneau, Willingham and Parmelee will likely be in the lineup when they are healthy. When they need a day off, or perhaps maybe a tough lefthander is on the mound, Butera catches and Doumit and/or Mauer play in the field. So largely, if not exclusively, Butera took/will take AB's from other backups.

    Finally, Butera is considered a better defensive catcher than Doumit. The upgrade defensively of playing Butera at catcher over Doumit will, at least to some degree cancel the loss of offense by playing Butera over some other backup.

    One last point is that Butera doesn't play very often. There certainly could be some considerable benefit to having an extra PH on the bench to hit for the middle infielders late in games. I just suspect that getting more AB's to Doumit and perhaps Mauer by having Butera on the roster could be worth putting up with his lack of offense.
    Or, Gardy could just get over his fear of losing the DH for, at most, one game. Either way works.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Or, Gardy could just get over his fear of losing the DH for, at most, one game. Either way works.
    I prefer the condensed version.

  3. #23
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    I am still not sure if I explained my point very well. I hope so. I think that maybe having Butera catch around 30 games means that Mauer and Doumit are less dinged up. That should make them more productive. It might mean that they actually appear in more games(just less at catcher) then they would if Butera were not on the roster. It is certainly possible to dispute that take.

    I also not sure that even if I am largely right, that it justifies Butera's place on the roster. Still, he may be enough better defensively to justify having him on the roster over Hermann or some other 3rd catcher. The possible contributions of a 2nd utility infielder or a bench bat may be more valuable than keeping Mauer and/or Doumit a little fresher and getting them a few more AB's. Still, I won't be surprised if Butera is back on the 25 man in a month or so.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim H View Post
    Still, I won't be surprised if Butera is back on the 25 man in a month or so.
    Sadly, if there is some truth to the point that past is only prologue, Drew will be back to accumulating days for his major league pension very soon, indeed- probably the first extra inning game without Gardy's security blanket will spur the call to Roc.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim H View Post
    I am still not sure if I explained my point very well. I hope so. I think that maybe having Butera catch around 30 games means that Mauer and Doumit are less dinged up. That should make them more productive. It might mean that they actually appear in more games(just less at catcher) then they would if Butera were not on the roster. It is certainly possible to dispute that take.

    I also not sure that even if I am largely right, that it justifies Butera's place on the roster. Still, he may be enough better defensively to justify having him on the roster over Hermann or some other 3rd catcher. The possible contributions of a 2nd utility infielder or a bench bat may be more valuable than keeping Mauer and/or Doumit a little fresher and getting them a few more AB's. Still, I won't be surprised if Butera is back on the 25 man in a month or so.
    What you're really saying is that Mauer is no longer capable of being a full time catcher. Rather than admit that, and move him permanently to somewhere he could play every day, the Twins will (and should) force a third catcher who cannot be used in any other role onto a roster that in this day and age of 12-man pitching staffs is already down to a bare minimum of bench spots. Do I have that right?

  6. #26
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    I will just be optimistic and say Colabello or Herrmann, for players, and Hernandez or Walters (or maybe Watts or Pugh, but I don't worry too much about the 'pen at the moment).

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim H View Post
    I am still not sure if I explained my point very well. I hope so. I think that maybe having Butera catch around 30 games means that Mauer and Doumit are less dinged up. That should make them more productive. It might mean that they actually appear in more games(just less at catcher) then they would if Butera were not on the roster. It is certainly possible to dispute that take.

    I also not sure that even if I am largely right, that it justifies Butera's place on the roster. Still, he may be enough better defensively to justify having him on the roster over Hermann or some other 3rd catcher. The possible contributions of a 2nd utility infielder or a bench bat may be more valuable than keeping Mauer and/or Doumit a little fresher and getting them a few more AB's. Still, I won't be surprised if Butera is back on the 25 man in a month or so.
    Jim... I understand what you are saying and I don't necessarily disagree with you. A good defensive catcher has value.

    To me it's a question of how many roster spots you take up using 3 catchers.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim H View Post
    I am still not sure if I explained my point very well. I hope so. I think that maybe having Butera catch around 30 games means that Mauer and Doumit are less dinged up. That should make them more productive. It might mean that they actually appear in more games(just less at catcher) then they would if Butera were not on the roster. It is certainly possible to dispute that take.

    I also not sure that even if I am largely right, that it justifies Butera's place on the roster. Still, he may be enough better defensively to justify having him on the roster over Hermann or some other 3rd catcher. The possible contributions of a 2nd utility infielder or a bench bat may be more valuable than keeping Mauer and/or Doumit a little fresher and getting them a few more AB's. Still, I won't be surprised if Butera is back on the 25 man in a month or so.
    But you shouldnt need a 3rd catcher in order to keep both Mauer and Doumit fresh.
    If Doumit's primary position were 1B or RF or something, I could see your point.
    But Doumits primary position (DH) already has him sitting on the bench for 17/18ths of the game. He should be plenty rested when the days come that he needs to catch.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
    . A good defensive catcher has value.
    Agreed. Let's get a couple.

  10. #30
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    Updates on De Vries and Hendriks, courtesy of LENIII, http://www.startribune.com/sports/tw...200725991.html
    De Vries feels fine today, still on track to start next Saturday.
    Hendriks will pitch in a minor league game tomorrow and should be good to go on Friday.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
    Updates on De Vries and Hendriks, courtesy of LENIII, Twins-Red Sox: The last fake game before 162 real ones | StarTribune.com
    De Vries feels fine today, still on track to start next Saturday.
    Hendriks will pitch in a minor league game tomorrow and should be good to go on Friday.
    How about Morneau (back) and Deduno?
    And what about the major Pelfrey setback today?

    Methinks it's soon time to start a pool on when Pelf goes on the Shelf...what say you?

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    How about Morneau (back) and Deduno?
    And what about the major Pelfrey setback today?

    Methinks it's soon time to start a pool on when Pelf goes on the Shelf...what say you?
    You can click the link for updates on Morneau and Deduno.
    I wanted to be careful not to steal too much info from the link, per the posting rules.

  13. #33
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    I didn't say Swarzak because he's not in AAA. He's on the major league disabled list, and will be activated in the first 15 days of the season.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  14. #34
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
    You can click the link for updates on Morneau and Deduno.
    I wanted to be careful not to steal too much info from the link, per the posting rules.
    Pelfrey didn't pitch bad. Three of the runs should have been unearned, because of bad defense on the part of Dozier. The official scorers should have ruled both plays errors, and then we're talking about one earned run. The Red Sox hitters only squared up three balls all day, two on hanging curve balls that he probably would not have thrown in a real game. One was an out (on a great diving catch by Dozier.)

    His sinker and change looked good. Most of the swings on his sinker were late and lame. Still working on the slider. I don't think he threw it for a strike all day. Typical spring start. Nothing to worry about.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  15. #35
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    What you're really saying is that Mauer is no longer capable of being a full time catcher. Rather than admit that, and move him permanently to somewhere he could play every day, the Twins will (and should) force a third catcher who cannot be used in any other role onto a roster that in this day and age of 12-man pitching staffs is already down to a bare minimum of bench spots. Do I have that right?
    I don't know that is quite what I meant, but yes I don't think Mauer is a full time catcher anymore. I suspect that if he tries to catch 120 games plus, it will hurt his offense, big time. I also suspect that if you put Doumit behind the plate 60 plus times, you will notice the downgrade defensively. Whether that justifies Butera on the roster, I don't know. There is no doubt that having Butera on the roster hurts the offense and will likely cost Mastroianni and other potential backups playing time. It will keep either a 2nd utility guy or a bench bat or a 12th pitcher off the roster as well.

    If it were me, I would do what it takes to keep Mauer healthy and productive. I don't know if getting Doumit more AB's is that important or not. I am afraid that if he approaches being a half time catcher it either hurts his offense or puts him on the DL. I could easily be wrong about that.

  16. #36
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    Personally, I think that if our pitching staff is actually doing well enough that we can ride with 11 pitchers, I would welcome Butera to be our 5th bench guy.

    Heck, then you could have Mastroianni PR for Doumit/Mauer in the late innings, and be able to throw somebody behind the plate for the end of the game.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmathewson View Post
    Pelfrey didn't pitch bad. Three of the runs should have been unearned, because of bad defense on the part of Dozier. The official scorers should have ruled both plays errors, and then we're talking about one earned run. The Red Sox hitters only squared up three balls all day, two on hanging curve balls that he probably would not have thrown in a real game. One was an out (on a great diving catch by Dozier.)

    His sinker and change looked good. Most of the swings on his sinker were late and lame. Still working on the slider. I don't think he threw it for a strike all day. Typical spring start. Nothing to worry about.
    Pelfrey was quoted as blaming the slider for the negative that occurred out there and remained hopeful that the velocity will get better as the season progresses. Not to doubt you and I admittedly didn't see the game, but 9 hits allowed and a HBP in 3.2 innings sounds like more than just 3 square-ups by the Sox.

    And Gardy was the definition of damning with faint praise:

    Said Twins manager Ron Gardenhire: "He got his innings in, let's just put it that way. His pace was nowhere. He was working on some things, so you've got to give him that. But as the season goes on, he's got to get a pace. He's a work in progress, let's put it that way."
    Certainly just another ST game and the fact that he hasn't publicly complained about pain or discomfort is good news. He seems like a guy you want to see succeed, right now it still seems like the odds are slightly to the long side for a completely healthy and effective 2013 season.
    Last edited by jokin; 03-30-2013 at 10:19 PM.

  18. #38
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    Probably the first guy up if a pitcher is needed for more than a spot start will be Deduno, If a player is needed probably Arcia if he gets off to a good start.

  19. #39
    Senior Member Triple-A gil4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbknudson View Post
    Why are you even asking? Butera. No matter who goes down first.

    (Sorry, couldn't resist!)
    Hopefully it's as a pitcher so we don't have to see him try to hit

  20. #40
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    Agreed. Let's get a couple.
    Preferably capable of OPS'ing north of .500.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ballÖ and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

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