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Thread: Why have the Twins been dumping so much salary and players the last couple years?

  1. #21
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    Simple answer: The drafts in the mid part of the first decade of this century did not product players that deserved to be signed, other than Mauer and Morneau.

    Longer answer: Ryan does not believe in spending money on players not already on his roster. I'm very thankful Smith was the GM when Sano was available.
    Lighten up Francis....

  2. #22
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    AROD and CC Sabathia disagree with you Brock.
    Lighten up Francis....

  3. #23
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    I don't think the GM has much to do with the draft. Smith in particular was quoted as saying he just wanted to "get out of the way". The architect of the current farm system is Johnson, who has drafted very well.

    I do think we have to give credit where credit is due on international signings, not just Sano but Polanco and Keplar as the start of a trend to pay what is needed to get the talent over there. Also, Smith upgraded the Dominican Academy considerably, which was the worst in baseball for decades.

    Contrast the Sano signing with how Ryan handled Cabrera, who was at our academy and only signed with the Marlins because Ryan was too cheap to pay fair market value.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  4. #24
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    Let's see one more year of international signings with Ryan before judging, but I fear he's bringing his frugal ways there also.....
    Lighten up Francis....

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    AROD and CC Sabathia disagree with you Brock.
    And without Jeter, Cano, Pettitte, Posada, and Rivera, the Yankees don't win in 2008 (which is their only WS victory in the past 12+ seasons).

    Every time the Yankees try to build a team around free agency, they fail to win the World Series. They did it from 2001-2007 and now they're doing it again. Building a team from free agency and trades means you're generally getting decline-phase players at an exorbitant price. That's not a recipe for success.

    And if the Yankees can't do it with what amounts to basically an unlimited budget, the Twins sure as hell can't buy their way into the playoffs after 99 and 96 loss seasons.

  6. #26
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    2009, Brock

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    2009, Brock
    Ah, right. I always get those two seasons flipped for some reason.

    And to be clear, I'm not advocating completely avoiding the free agency market. I didn't like what the Twins did this offseason and I still don't like it.

    But you can't expect this team to buy their way out of suckitude.

  8. #28
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    I don't view "winning the WS" as an accurage measure of success, maybe that's part of our disagreement.....

    All we are asking is that when the Twins roll out Chad Allen and others as their DH on a WS contending team, that maybe spending some money on ONE legit FA would be a good idea.*

    *Ok, some of us are also asking that when you have the worst collection of starting pitching the in league that you sign one legit FA too
    Lighten up Francis....

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I don't view "winning the WS" as an accurage measure of success, maybe that's part of our disagreement.....

    All we are asking is that when the Twins roll out Chad Allen and others as their DH on a WS contending team, that maybe spending some money on ONE legit FA would be a good idea.*

    *Ok, some of us are also asking that when you have the worst collection of starting pitching the in league that you sign one legit FA too
    For me, it's a sliding scale. To Yankees fans, winning the World Series is about on par with Twins fans seeing their team make the postseason.

    And while the Yankees may get 3-5 good seasons from A-Rod and Sabathia, at some point they're going to be saddled with 2-4 more years of absolutely awful play at an absolutely ridiculous price.

    Again, I'm only referencing people who suggest that the Twins should have pursued Greinke or Sanchez. Those deals rarely work out for the "winning" team over the long haul and the Twins can't afford to be saddled with two aging players making $45m a year. But that doesn't mean the Twins should avoid the free agent market entirely. There was no good reason not to go after a Marcum or Dempster this offseason on a short contract at a reasonable price.

  10. #30
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    Except most players do not want to play for a mid market penny pinching losing team on a short or resonible contract... so if your going to get quality players , you have to pay to play.

  11. #31
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnydakota View Post
    Except most players do not want to play for a mid market penny pinching losing team on a short or resonible contract... so if your going to get quality players , you have to pay to play.
    If you throw good offers at Marcum, Dempster, and Saunders, you'll get one of them.

    Of course, it hinges on offering more money than everyone else. The bottom line is more important than playing in Fenway Park to most of these guys. You won't get every free agent, but you'll get some of them.

    What you can't do is offer Ryan Dempster a one year, $6m deal and then complain that nobody wants to come to Minnesota. I'm not saying that the team does that with every player but there is some pretty solid evidence that they've pulled that trick in the past.

  12. #32
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    I disagree on Grienke, if you think he's a top 30 pitcher for the next 5 years, this team can afford him (even if the last 2-3 years are bad). Other than mauer, they have zero legit salaries on this roster the next 5 years. Willingham maybe, but even that is for 1 more year......

    I don't get why people keep saying they can't afford Greinke. This year, Morneau and Blackburn come off, and they get $25MMM more in revenue. Heck, that revenue increase alone pays Greinke's entire salary for 8 years.......and you still are banking more than $15MM a year in savings when Justin and Nick are gone. There is/was plenty of money to spend big this year.

    Imagine having a healthy Greinke in this rotation instead of Pelfrey.....I'm not saying that I expect them to keep this up, but if you replace your worst pitcher with a guy that would be your best pitcher, that's got to be worth 5-10 wins over the season. What is that worht this year or next year?
    Lighten up Francis....

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    I disagree on Grienke, if you think he's a top 30 pitcher for the next 5 years, this team can afford him (even if the last 2-3 years are bad).
    There's simply no reason to think that. Right now, here are the highest paid starting pitchers who are signed with teams whose farm systems they didn't play for:

    Johan Santana
    CC Sabathia
    Cliff Lee
    Roy Halladay
    Carlos Zambrano
    Barry Zito

    There's a hell of a lot of failure there and not a lot of success. Sure, Greinke might be great for four years and then taper off.

    But chances are he'll be great for two, good for two more, and then descend into pretty bad. The Twins can't afford to be saddled with that kind of risk.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Let's see one more year of international signings with Ryan before judging, but I fear he's bringing his frugal ways there also.....
    Based on what? They signed a top 5 bonus and more or less spent their cap. What more do you want?

  15. #35
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    Why not? What else will they do with the money? Even if he's bad, what else will they be spending the money on?
    Lighten up Francis....

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
    Based on what? They signed a top 5 bonus and more or less spent their cap. What more do you want?
    Good point. I keep forgetting there is a cap now.
    Lighten up Francis....

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Beauchamp View Post
    There's simply no reason to think that. Right now, here are the highest paid starting pitchers who are signed with teams whose farm systems they didn't play for:

    Johan Santana
    CC Sabathia
    Cliff Lee
    Roy Halladay
    Carlos Zambrano
    Barry Zito

    There's a hell of a lot of failure there and not a lot of success. Sure, Greinke might be great for four years and then taper off.

    But chances are he'll be great for two, good for two more, and then descend into p
    retty bad. The Twins can't afford to be saddled with that kind of risk.
    Plus you would lock up almost 50% of your payroll in two guys for the next 6 years. Sure you can fit it for a couple of years but the result is no flexibility going forward. And if Greinke falls off or gets hurt you are really screwed. That is a lot of risk for the Twins to take on.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    Let's see one more year of international signings with Ryan before judging, but I fear he's bringing his frugal ways there also.....
    I think the new signing pools guarantee that teams will spend quite a bit of money internationally. There is only so much money to go around and somebody has to sign the top int'l prospects. Perhaps Ryan trades some of it but I think it will the Twins will be top ten in money spent at the end of the day.

  19. #39
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
    Plus you would lock up almost 50% of your payroll in two guys for the next 6 years. Sure you can fit it for a couple of years but the result is no flexibility going forward. And if Greinke falls off or gets hurt you are really screwed. That is a lot of risk for the Twins to take on.
    This team has ridiculous amounts of flexibility. The issue is will Ryan back off the rigid stance he has had his entire career about FA - You could argue this team will have room enough for TWO Grienke salaries next year and beyond. That doesnt mean you do it but we need to be a LOT more willing to consider deals like that to augment our future. And even more so willing to consider 3/40 deals that have risk. We can't even say with assurance that we would even consider that.

  20. #40
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    Again, how are you screwed? 100% of Greinke's salary would have been paid for by new revenue, and you still have more than $15MM coming off the books after this year, and $7Mm the next, and they are well below what they could spend.

    How is the flexibility hurt at all, if they sign Greinke?

    You left Darvish off your list of FA pitchers.....he was a FA.
    Lighten up Francis....

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