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Thread: Florimon or Dozier?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldgoat_MN View Post
    There is a team winning quite a few of their games called the Yankees. Their SS is nowhere near the best in the league and never has been. Still, they get by.

    I'd love to have an Ozzie Smith playing SS for the Twins, but we don't have one in our organization and the original is too old.

    My point isn't just to put anyone out there and pray, but rather that sometimes you take a little less quality in the field if that player can make up for it at the plate. (I suspect that Gardy would disagree, but most here get it)

    It's worked out pretty well for over 15 years for that Yankee team.
    I assume this is the Twins plan with Sano but the Twins don't seem to have a SS anywhere close to MLB ready that profiles to have an above average bat let alone Derek Jeter who was a #6 overall pick and the #6 prospect overall prior to his call up. This team gets criticized for thier inablity to draft and develop top of the rotation arms but they are equally inefficient at drafting and developing middle infielders.

    Not that I disagree, I'll trade defense for offense any and every day of the week.

  2. #22
    Owner All-Star John Bonnes's Avatar
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    It's an interesting question. Given their minor league careers, Dozier would seem to have more promise, but he's also in a position to be squeezed - and Rosario is looking like the real deal.

    I think whoever said "neither" might be right. I'm still not convinced that Florimon will last beyond this year - the Twins aren't afraid to go nab a bargain gloveman at SS in the offseason. So I guess I'd go with Dozier. If he improves enough or if Rosario does well in AA, Dozier could be kept around to keep the seat warm, even if it's just through next May.

  3. #23
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    Dozier can play the utility role, or the SS role when Rosario is here. Floriman? Not so much. Plouffe can play 1B/DH/utility also. That seems like the right combo platter to me.
    Lighten up Francis....

  4. #24
    Senior Member All-Star cmathewson's Avatar
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    I don't get this thread. Neither Dozier not Florimon is the long-term answer. But the Twins have a lot more pressing problems right now. None of the posters seems to take defense into the discussion at all, yet that is far and away the most important aspect of their games. In this respect, both are better than Either Escobar or Carroll, imho.
    "If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

  5. #25
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Santana/Beresford, Rosario, and Beresford/Santana will occupy these three positions and Carroll will be gone. None of those other three will stick unless Dozier starts hitting. Escobar returned to form pretty quickly after the hot start and Florimon will end up around .600 OPS. Beresford is a better Escobar, though he may have to start at short if Santana isn't sticking there defensively.

    Offensive production at SS starting mid-2014 and especially in 2015 and 2016 isn't going to matter much.

  6. #26
    Please ban me! All-Star stringer bell's Avatar
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    Santana has an even 20 errors at short for the Rock Cats. While we all know that errors aren't the be-all and end-all when it comes to defense, a high error total is a red flag. Santana's offense hasn't been great, either. The BA is around .280 last I looked, but not a high OBP or Slugging. Just like everyone else, he has more than half a season to make a mark. I wonder if the Twins would consider moving Dozier back to SS, or using him in a utility role. He doesn't have the arm or Florimon or Escobar, but I don't remember many instances when his arm strength cost bases or outs. I saw Polanco in person in CR, and he made two plays in the hole where he couldn't get the runner. Jim Crikket commented on one throw by saying that is why he had been playing second (I'm paraphrasing SDB), so perhaps he isn't a candidate for shortstop.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    Santana/Beresford, Rosario, and Beresford/Santana will occupy these three positions and Carroll will be gone. None of those other three will stick unless Dozier starts hitting. Escobar returned to form pretty quickly after the hot start and Florimon will end up around .600 OPS. Beresford is a better Escobar, though he may have to start at short if Santana isn't sticking there defensively.

    Offensive production at SS starting mid-2014 and especially in 2015 and 2016 isn't going to matter much.
    Just in case it does, it appears we are on the verge of earning another high draft pick for the 2014 draft. Would not be surprised if we draft a SS with some pop with our 1st pick.

  8. #28
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    Although Florimon has been dreadful offensively, advanced defensive metrics (from both fangraphs and baseball reference) place him as arguably the best defensive shortstop in the game this year. As a result he has posted 1.4 WAR according to fangraphs and 1.5 WAR according to baseball reference. Those numbers put him easily in the top half of shortstops. I know WAR isn't a perfect stat, but it does indicate that Florimon has been solid. Furthermore, Florimon has shown some improvement offensively since last season: his walk rate, line drive rate, and contact rate have all improved.

    Florimon certainly isn't the long-term answer at SS, but if he continues to make small improvements offensively and play excellent defense, he should be an adequate starter during our rebuilding years until one of our better SS prospects is ready.

    I really hope that the Twins can grab a SS prospect who can play the position and has a solid bat in the first round next year.

  9. #29
    Owner MVP Seth Stohs's Avatar
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    Dozier probably has the shorter leash as a starter... But he can be a very solid utility guy. Florimon seems like if he isn't the SS, he won't be a utility guy.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Triple-A
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    One problem I have with Dozier is it seems like he hits more pop flies rather than line drives. I don't know if the stats back me up on that one, though.

  11. #31
    What about Levi Michael? How does he project?

  12. #32
    I woudn't be opposed to Dozier moving back to SS next season and keep it warm until one of the SS prospects is ready.

  13. #33
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth Kitsom View Post
    I woudn't be opposed to Dozier moving back to SS next season and keep it warm until one of the SS prospects is ready.
    Dozier seems to only be able to play second base at a level that merits his being on the field at all. Excellent defense can make up for sub-.700 OPS. But he might only amount to an average defensive player at SS.

    As far as Michael is concerned, he is unfortunately putting up very similar numbers at Fort Myers in 2013 as he did in 2012. Hopefully he plays well enough the rest of the season to earn a start at NB next year. Else . . . he is trouble.

  14. #34
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Boom Boom's Avatar
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    How come the Twins didn't draft any shortstops this year?

  15. #35
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    Both of these guys are likely placeholders. If one were to catch lightening in a bottle, I'd bet on Dozier, but I think that's looking more and more unlikely. Rosario will likely be transitioning into 2nd base at some point over the course of next year. That's when this decision will be forced. I personally would go with Dozier over Florimon if forced to choose. I could see moving Plouffe back to short as well (especially given the lack of high ceiling prospects there) if both Sano and Rosario get called up. That would leave Dozier as a utility guy.

    The one problem I have with this discussion is that it really should be Florimon vs. Dozier vs. Escobar. Escobar should have a shot too.

  16. #36
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Joe A. Preusser's Avatar
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    I've said it before and I'll say it again. If we had to, we could play both of these defensively strong guys in a lineup that included Sano, Hicks, Buxton, Mauer, Arcia, et al to carry the offense. Being strong defensively up the middle is worth some hitting ability. Both Dozier and Floriman can hit ~.250 with low power. More than enough to be pieces on a championship team with others hitting a ton.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by benchwarmerjim View Post
    its up to 2 HR, and the one I saw was a second deck, (what seemed like a) 500 footer. When the Twins traded Liriano to the White Sox, he pretty much looked the same when he was with the Twins: got some strikeouts, walked people, and looked lost on the mound at times. Something has clicked in Pittsburgh so far and thats good for him, but Im not faulting the Twins for trading him. I guess Im just happy they actually got something in return for him instead of letting him go as a free agent.
    Um what did they get for him? yup thats what i thought ....

  18. #38
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Joe A. Preusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnydakota View Post
    Um what did they get for him? yup thats what i thought ....
    They got an AAAA defensive SS and an AAAA starting pitcher. For 2 rented months of 5+ ERA. Good trade for the Twins.

  19. #39
    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post

    Offensive production at SS starting mid-2014 and especially in 2015 and 2016 isn't going to matter much.
    IMO, offensive production matters from every position. Outs made by a SS don't count less than outs made by a 3rd baseman. The 9th place hitter comes up once every time through the lineup, just like every other place in the lineup. Another problem with "player x doesn't have to hit" is that lineups rarely go through a season intact, so the 1-8 hitters you planned on having in spring training often aren't all there. Now you have a backup at another position or two, plus that guy in the 9th hole, and pretty soon your lineup is struggling to consistently put up the kind of runs you need to put up in the American League.

    If you have to settle for a guy who can't hit, so be it. But you should never be satisfied with that, or think it doesn't matter.

  20. #40
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer Joe A. Preusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    IMO, offensive production matters from every position. Outs made by a SS don't count less than outs made by a 3rd baseman. The 9th place hitter comes up once every time through the lineup, just like every other place in the lineup. Another problem with "player x doesn't have to hit" is that lineups rarely go through a season intact, so the 1-8 hitters you planned on having in spring training often aren't all there. Now you have a backup at another position or two, plus that guy in the 9th hole, and pretty soon your lineup is struggling to consistently put up the kind of runs you need to put up in the American League.

    If you have to settle for a guy who can't hit, so be it. But you should never be satisfied with that, or think it doesn't matter.
    I can't argue with your points, they are all true. But I like to think of it as "runs/9 innings" potential rather than a sum of individual parts. I have seen many teams put several poor hitting but excellent defense guys in their starting 9 and still hit plenty enough to make deep playoff runs. Remember, one of Tim Laudner's nicknames was "Buck Eighty-Six" for a very obvious reason. And I would still expect both Dozier and Flori to hit in the neighborhood of .250, anything less likely isn't worth it.

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