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Thread: Jose Abreu defects

  1. #21
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    Yeah...I'm not sure I accept "geography" as any kind of legit reason why the Twins cant sign int'l FAs.
    It's a bit different with a cuban defector (who is already in his prime) vs a 16-18 year old.

  2. #22
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
    It's a bit different with a cuban defector (who is already in his prime) vs a 16-18 year old.
    You just made the argument against you. Why would a guy with only one contract to sign (more than likely) waste his time with climate? Money will be the overwhelming deciding factor.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    You just made the argument against you. Why would a guy with only one contract to sign (more than likely) waste his time with climate? Money will be the overwhelming deciding factor.
    Because he's going to have other offers from warmer climate teams who more importantly are contending teams and not in rebuilding mode like the Twins.

  4. #24
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pius Jefferson View Post
    Because he's going to have other offers from warmer climate teams who more importantly are contending teams and not in rebuilding mode like the Twins.
    Unless they are offering him more money...all of that is irrelevant.

  5. #25
    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Unless they are offering him more money...all of that is irrelevant.
    Unless you have some inside information from somebody in the Abreu camp, there is absolutely no way to know that money is going to be the deciding factor. No matter who he signs for, he will be set for life, and I'm sure he knows that. Professional athletes decide all the time to go to a team other than the highest bidder for non-financial reasons (climate, contention status, personal preference, etc).

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldgoat_MN View Post
    Unfortunately I believe that SpiritofVodkaDave is probably right.

    I like what Winston Smith said, too, but Tony O came up in a time when the Twins franchise (Senators before them) was owned by Calvin, who was unusually aggressive about signing Latino players and treating them well.

    Not something Calvin gets a lot of credit for.
    Calvin was tighter with money than the Pohlads ever could be,

  7. #27
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoPilgrim View Post
    Unless you have some inside information from somebody in the Abreu camp, there is absolutely no way to know that money is going to be the deciding factor. No matter who he signs for, he will be set for life, and I'm sure he knows that. Professional athletes decide all the time to go to a team other than the highest bidder for non-financial reasons (climate, contention status, personal preference, etc).
    I will make this very simple for you and anyone else to prove: can you please cite past defectors or IFA that have turned down more lucrative deals because of climate or win/loss records? Since so many of you toss this counter-intuitive notion around at nearly every turn....surely this is a host of examples...no?

    I would just adore hearing them. I mean, how on Earth did Sano sign here? We dupe him about Minnesota? Construct a fake set on Hawaii with a bunch of dudes saying "you betcha!"? Last I checked....we offered the most money.
    Last edited by TheLeviathan; 08-12-2013 at 07:18 PM.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer righty8383's Avatar
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    I learned a long time ago not to get my hopes up when an opportunity like this comes along. Even though the Twins have never had a better opportunity to splurge on a player like this, I would be shocked if it happened.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxtung View Post
    I am not sure I believe he has signed. If Thrylos broke the story then I would feel a little better about this statement.

  10. #30
    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldgoat_MN View Post
    Unfortunately I believe that SpiritofVodkaDave is probably right.

    I like what Winston Smith said, too, but Tony O came up in a time when the Twins franchise (Senators before them) was owned by Calvin, who was unusually aggressive about signing Latino players and treating them well.

    Not something Calvin gets a lot of credit for.
    True, but it is before Calvin. His dad/uncle Clark came into the Senators as a part time owner, full time manager in 1912. By 1915 the influx of Cubans to the club started (The Twins/Senators are the first franchise to get into Latin America, btw; another part of the club's history that is disregarded by the current owners.)

    After Castro all bets were off in Cuba...
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    twitter: @thrylos98

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Calvin was tighter with money than the Pohlads ever could be,
    Calvin would be very proud how these Pohlad boys are keeping all the money and not trying to field an average team. Do we need to lose 90+ games for another 3 years before they decide to do something.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pius Jefferson View Post
    Because he's going to have other offers from warmer climate teams who more importantly are contending teams and not in rebuilding mode like the Twins.
    Like those contending, warm weather Chicago Cubs who seem to be hot on the trail of every international player this year?

    About Griffith, let's be honest, he likely only scouted Latin players with an eye on finding cheap labor to serve his Lion's Club dinners. He was a despicable human being, even more so than Carl Pohlad.

    The Telegraph - Google News Archive Search

  13. #33
    Senior Member Triple-A
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    I don't doubt that Abreu will probably sign wherever the highest contract appears. The chance of this being Minnesota seems almost certainly less than 1%. Would really love to be surprised, as this would only cost money, but my hopes are extremely low.

  14. #34
    Senior Member Double-A shs_59's Avatar
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    A couple months ago....I figured a 4yr 12 million dollar deal (3 milll a yr) + a 3.5 Million dollar signing bonus would be enough to get him.

    Thats obviously not the case if you can get him even near that type of deal. THE tWINS and TR need to do it!

    otherwise Guerrero would be ok. I'd be fine with him ....
    Top Twins prospects ? 1.Byron Buxton (OF-A+)
    2.Miguel Sano (3B-AA) 3.Alex Meyer (SP-AA) 4. Kohl Stewart (SP-RK) 5. Eddie Rosario (2B-AA) 6. J.O. Berrios (P-A) 7. Josmil Pinto (C-AAA) 8. A.B. Walker (OF-A) 9. L. Thorpe (SP-RK) 10. Travis Harrison (3B-A) 11. Max Kepler (OF-A) 12. Trevor May (SP-AA) 13. Jorge Polanco (2B-A) 14. Kennys Vargas (1B-A+) 15. Miguel Sulbaran (SP-A) Just Missed:P Zach Jones, SS Aderlin Mejia, P Stephen Gonsalves, P Ryan Eades.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    I will make this very simple for you and anyone else to prove: can you please cite past defectors or IFA that have turned down more lucrative deals because of climate or win/loss records? Since so many of you toss this counter-intuitive notion around at nearly every turn....surely this is a host of examples...no?

    I would just adore hearing them. I mean, how on Earth did Sano sign here? We dupe him about Minnesota? Construct a fake set on Hawaii with a bunch of dudes saying "you betcha!"? Last I checked....we offered the most money.
    Hisashi Iwakuma turned down Oakland. The next year he signed with Seattle for less money. True he made up for it with the next contract, but there were no guarentee it would work.
    Generaly you can't prove your "intuitive" hypothesis is correct either. You don't have the details.
    Last edited by old nurse; 08-12-2013 at 10:17 PM.

  16. #36
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Hisashi Iwakuma turned down Oakland. The next year he signed with Seattle for less money. True he made up for it with the next contract, but there were no guarentee it would work.
    Generaly you can't prove your "intuitive" hypothesis is correct either. You don't have the details.
    So he turned down a contract in hopes of making more money in the future. And he's already made more than what Oakland had on the table plus what he made in Japan when he returned. If that's the best you got...I'm wondering how so many people believe this notion.

    To your second point, there are two ways to approach that. 1) If we don't have the details to know why a player is or is not signing a deal - then every claim here about climate is equally as dubious. So why defend them?

    Or

    2) If we can use reasonable suspicions about why players make the decisions they do - the VAST majority of contracts signed are because that was the most money offered to them. From Grienke to Pujols to Jose Reyes to Hamilton and on and on for as long as free agency has existed. Rarely does a player make a significant, long-term commitment for reasons other than the money on the table. Or, at least, without it being the primary motivation. Secondary motivations only come into play when the offers are substantially similar.

  17. #37
    Senior Member Triple-A
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxtung View Post
    Having spotted the Twins Jose Abreu in a GCL box score last night, I get this now. No wonder the name sounded familiar.

    Anyhow, what is the old saying? You can never have enough Jose Abreu?

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    So he turned down a contract in hopes of making more money in the future. And he's already made more than what Oakland had on the table plus what he made in Japan when he returned. If that's the best you got...I'm wondering how so many people believe this notion.

    To your second point, there are two ways to approach that. 1) If we don't have the details to know why a player is or is not signing a deal - then every claim here about climate is equally as dubious. So why defend them?

    Or

    2) If we can use reasonable suspicions about why players make the decisions they do - the VAST majority of contracts signed are because that was the most money offered to them. From Grienke to Pujols to Jose Reyes to Hamilton and on and on for as long as free agency has existed. Rarely does a player make a significant, long-term commitment for reasons other than the money on the table. Or, at least, without it being the primary motivation. Secondary motivations only come into play when the offers are substantially similar.
    Pujols had a larger offer from Miami. Maybe the VAST majority of contracts are the largest ones offered. I don't know. I don't have access to that information. I am glad you do.I am glad you have access to the insights of a players reasoning why they sign where they do. You can intellectualize all you want, but you still only have speculation. It is not in the player's interest to say they signed somewhere else for less. Would a team let out that they had a higher bid and were rejected and give specifics? (Of course you are going to say yes). That is not done. Believing that it is only about the money allows you an excuse to say why a player did not come here.Greinke may have said that he went to the team that offered him the most money, but he did not say that all were allowed to bid on his services. If it is only about the money, why are there no trade clauses negotiated into the free agent contract?
    You asked for a player that signed for less than other teams offered in the IFA market. I gave you one. It met the criteria.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by darin617 View Post
    I am not sure I believe he has signed. If Thrylos broke the story then I would feel a little better about this statement.
    Sarcasm... We have a kid in rookie ball with the same name.

  20. #40
    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Pujols had a larger offer from Miami. Maybe the VAST majority of contracts are the largest ones offered. I don't know. I don't have access to that information. I am glad you do.I am glad you have access to the insights of a players reasoning why they sign where they do. You can intellectualize all you want, but you still only have speculation. It is not in the player's interest to say they signed somewhere else for less. Would a team let out that they had a higher bid and were rejected and give specifics? (Of course you are going to say yes). That is not done. ​Believing that it is only about the money allows you an excuse to say why a player did not come here.Greinke may have said that he went to the team that offered him the most money, but he did not say that all were allowed to bid on his services. If it is only about the money, why are there no trade clauses negotiated into the free agent contract?
    You asked for a player that signed for less than other teams offered in the IFA market. I gave you one. It met the criteria.
    If "that is not done" how do you know Pujols had a larger offer?

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