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Thread: Article: In Memoriam: Nick Blackburn

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    Article: In Memoriam: Nick Blackburn


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    Owner All-Star John Bonnes's Avatar
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    First - nice job Jesse. You're killing it lately.

    Of all the moves that Bill Smith messed up, I gotta say, this is the one that I probably went most ballistic over at the time it happened. D Young-Garza I understood, because I wanted that right-handed power bat. Santana I could forgive, because it was clear the offers the Twins wanted weren't there. Even trading away JJ Hardy was forgivable because I trusted the scouting department on Nishioka. (Oops.)

    But from the moment this contract was signed, I couldn't believe it. And I wasn't alone - the blogosphere hated it. And I liked Blackburn. But this deal never, ever, made any kind of sense.

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    Super Moderator MVP USAFChief's Avatar
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    While the Blackburn deal was regrettable (and predictably so), it did nowhere near the damage to this organization that the Young-Garza deal did, or the Santana trade, or the Hardy trade.

    I'd say Young-Garza is forgivable. The other two, not so much. If you don't get what you want for Santana, you keep him, put another 230 innings on his arm, and take the draft picks, and there were those who said so at the time. JJ Hardy for junk was just terrible, and many said so at the time.

    Blackburn cost the Twins only money, and not even all that much in the big scheme of things. No big deal.

    The other deals cost the Twins talent, which IS a big deal.

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    Senior Member All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    I can't blame the Twins for liking dependable innings. But these innings were hardly dependable. It's like signing Correia to a five year contract. Go year to year with the innings guys, come on.

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    Senior Member Triple-A raindog's Avatar
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    RIP Nick Blackburn

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    Quote Originally Posted by USAFChief View Post
    While the Blackburn deal was regrettable (and predictably so), it did nowhere near the damage to this organization that the Young-Garza deal did, or the Santana trade, or the Hardy trade.

    I'd say Young-Garza is forgivable. The other two, not so much. If you don't get what you want for Santana, you keep him, put another 230 innings on his arm, and take the draft picks, and there were those who said so at the time. JJ Hardy for junk was just terrible, and many said so at the time.

    Blackburn cost the Twins only money, and not even all that much in the big scheme of things. No big deal.

    The other deals cost the Twins talent, which IS a big deal.
    The Hardy deal was mostly Gardy's fault, saying loudly how the Twins needed more speed in the lineup to fit carvernous Target field. Hardy was the "obvious" choice; the slowest guy in the "speedy" positions. Voila; upgrade from Hardy to untested, one-year BABIP-inflated Japanese batting champ Nishioka. There was also speculation Hardy would be hard/expensive to sign long-term, and injury prone. He was signed to a 3/21 extension by the Orioles two or three months into the following season. And he was basically healthy all the next year while Mauer suffered bilateral leg weakness.

    The Hardy trade was so incredibly exasperating, and made me as a fan have lose so much confidence in the organization. When they traded Gomez to get him, I was amazed they managed to land him--a stellar defender at a prime position with power and decent on base numbers. And young too! The fact that they ran him out the door, insisting on trading him for nothing was hideous and so baffling. He had just hit 300/400/500 in the second half of his first season with the Twins after working through an injury.

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    Senior Member Triple-A raindog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AM. View Post
    The Hardy deal was mostly Gardy's fault, saying loudly how the Twins needed more speed in the lineup to fit carvernous Target field. Hardy was the "obvious" choice; the slowest guy in the "speedy" positions. Voila; upgrade from Hardy to untested, one-year BABIP-inflated Japanese batting champ Nishioka. There was also speculation Hardy would be hard/expensive to sign long-term, and injury prone. He was signed to a 3/21 extension by the Orioles two or three months into the following season. And he was basically healthy all the next year while Mauer suffered bilateral leg weakness.

    The Hardy trade was so incredibly exasperating, and made me as a fan have lose so much confidence in the organization. When they traded Gomez to get him, I was amazed they managed to land him--a stellar defender at a prime position with power and decent on base numbers. And young too! The fact that they ran him out the door, insisting on trading him for nothing was hideous and so baffling. He had just hit 300/400/500 in the second half of his first season with the Twins after working through an injury.
    It was so depressing. That and the Capps trade really made it hard to support the front office.

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    Senior Member Big-Leaguer jimbo92107's Avatar
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    The most frustrating thing about Nick Blackburn's career with the Twins is that you could see he was "this close" to dominating as a pitcher, if only he'd get completely healthy.

    He never got completely healthy. The knee sometimes was tolerable, but then it was the shoulder, or something else.

    Blackburn always had a fiercely competitive attitude. The body just wasn't able to hold up for him. Damn shame.

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    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo92107 View Post
    The most frustrating thing about Nick Blackburn's career with the Twins is that you could see he was "this close" to dominating as a pitcher, if only he'd get completely healthy.

    He was "this close" to imploding at any time. Guys that have to walk the tightest of ropes every time out aren't going to dominate.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ballÖ and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

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    Senior Member All-Star Thrylos's Avatar
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    What amazed me with Blackburn is that the Twins never tried to turn him into a pen guy, like they did with, another failed starter, Perkins. In the minors Blackburn used to have a four-seamer (which he practically abandoned in the majors for the sinker) that used to run up to 97. He could have really been a good pen part and even maybe earn the contract money.

    Hope he turns it around for a National league team that does not play the Twins
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo92107 View Post
    Blackburn always had a fiercely competitive attitude. The body just wasn't able to hold up for him. Damn shame.
    Right with you Jimbo. It's always sad to see someone's career crumble because of something they have no control over. To be sure he was struggling mightily long before the demotion and surgery ended his career (as this article shows very well), but there's always hope for any player, especially if you have the right attitude.

    I understand the frustration with his deal in hindsight, but I have a hard time faulting the Twins for projecting improvement based on the previous two years and wanting to solidify the rotation internally--especially since the cost of free agent starting pitchers is prohibitive for the budget. It didn't turn out right...better $14 million wasted on Blackburn than $36 million on Oliver Perez or 100s of Millions on mega busts like Brown, Zito and Hampton. (I know it's not an either or with those signings, but not paying Blackburn is not a guarantee it would have been spent any better)
    Peanuts From Heaven

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    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    I miss that he was more fun to mock than this bunch. He was the new Joe Mays after all!

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    Thanks John, and to everyone else for the input. My take on the various deals discussed above...

    - Santana: Smith tried to play the Yanks and Sox against each other in a bidding war, and for the first time ever they both backed down...maybe he overplayed his hand, but I don't fault him for doing so. Based on other reported offers, getting Jon Lester would have probably been the best play, but hindsight is 20/20. Phil Hughes obviously hasn't amounted to anything special, and Carlos Gomez has developed into a pretty special talent (albeit for the Brewers). I hated losing Santana as much as anyone, but he was never the same pitcher after leaving Minny, and the Mets basically got three years out of him and (no-hitter aside) have been paying a steep price for his contract since.

    - Garza: I'd say the biggest takeaway from this deal is that you don't trade good pitching for good hitting, as the former has repeatedly proven so much harder to come by. The Twins obviously overrated the talent of their other starting pitchers at the time, and have been paying the price ever since. And regarding Delmon, based purely on talent, he will surely go down as one of the biggest underachievers in MLB history.

    - Hardy: I was honestly surprised to hear how upset people were about this deal, and I don't even put it among Mr. Smith's bad deals pantheon. The Twins bought low on Hardy hoping to get his 2007-2008 Brewers production. What they got was roughly an average shortstop that missed 50+ games due to injury. Their logic in signing him to a one year deal was proven correct the following year, when he returned to his All-Star form with the Orioles, but he's been roughly league average since (though he has managed to stay healthy). The lack of an effective replacement probably makes letting him go look more egregious in hindsight, but I don't fault the front office at all for letting him go. They gave him one year to prove himself, he didn't, so they cut bait and moved on. Stuff happens.

    - Blackburn: As noted in the article, the deal was at least somewhat defensible at the time based on his production. However, my problems with the deal are two-fold. For one, Blackburn wasn't arbitration eligible for another year, meaning the Twins could have simply waited another year and still extended him at close to the same price had he stayed effective. I don't think there was any real threat that he was going to go out and have such an incredible 2010 that would have drastically increased the price of buying out his arb-eligible years. More importantly, the deal reflected the team's increasingly problematic inability to properly evaluate pitchers in light of available information (i.e. the value of strikeouts), one that has probably set the organization back five years given what has happened over the past three seasons.

    - Capps: I put the Matt Capps for Wilson Ramos deal in Billy's top three...injuries and kidnapping aside, Ramos is a beast and you have to get more for him than saves.

    Regardless of how you rank them, a rough stretch for the front office to say the least.

  14. #14
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    The most depressing thing about the Capps deal is that it only happened because Ramos' injury derailed a deal for Cliff Lee. Talk about a double gut punch.

  15. #15
    Senior Member All-Star SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
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    I always likes Blackburn. He was a solid #4 until the injuries and regression hit. The contract sucked, but at the end of the day it didn't exactly cripple the org, it was 4 mil a year basically.

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    Blackburn was never the same after the first injury. He did not throw his slider as much, his sinker didn't move as much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdotmcmahon View Post
    Thanks John, and to everyone else for the input. My take on the various deals discussed above...

    - Santana: Smith tried to play the Yanks and Sox against each other in a bidding war, and for the first time ever they both backed down...maybe he overplayed his hand, but I don't fault him for doing so. Based on other reported offers, getting Jon Lester would have probably been the best play, but hindsight is 20/20. Phil Hughes obviously hasn't amounted to anything special, and Carlos Gomez has developed into a pretty special talent (albeit for the Brewers). I hated losing Santana as much as anyone, but he was never the same pitcher after leaving Minny, and the Mets basically got three years out of him and (no-hitter aside) have been paying a steep price for his contract since.

    - Garza: I'd say the biggest takeaway from this deal is that you don't trade good pitching for good hitting, as the former has repeatedly proven so much harder to come by. The Twins obviously overrated the talent of their other starting pitchers at the time, and have been paying the price ever since. And regarding Delmon, based purely on talent, he will surely go down as one of the biggest underachievers in MLB history.

    - Hardy: I was honestly surprised to hear how upset people were about this deal, and I don't even put it among Mr. Smith's bad deals pantheon. The Twins bought low on Hardy hoping to get his 2007-2008 Brewers production. What they got was roughly an average shortstop that missed 50+ games due to injury. Their logic in signing him to a one year deal was proven correct the following year, when he returned to his All-Star form with the Orioles, but he's been roughly league average since (though he has managed to stay healthy). The lack of an effective replacement probably makes letting him go look more egregious in hindsight, but I don't fault the front office at all for letting him go. They gave him one year to prove himself, he didn't, so they cut bait and moved on. Stuff happens.

    - Blackburn: As noted in the article, the deal was at least somewhat defensible at the time based on his production. However, my problems with the deal are two-fold. For one, Blackburn wasn't arbitration eligible for another year, meaning the Twins could have simply waited another year and still extended him at close to the same price had he stayed effective. I don't think there was any real threat that he was going to go out and have such an incredible 2010 that would have drastically increased the price of buying out his arb-eligible years. More importantly, the deal reflected the team's increasingly problematic inability to properly evaluate pitchers in light of available information (i.e. the value of strikeouts), one that has probably set the organization back five years given what has happened over the past three seasons.

    - Capps: I put the Matt Capps for Wilson Ramos deal in Billy's top three...injuries and kidnapping aside, Ramos is a beast and you have to get more for him than saves.

    Regardless of how you rank them, a rough stretch for the front office to say the least.
    A) JJ Hardy has been better than league average. He's ranked 4th, 11th, and 7th (current season) among MLB SS (in WAR) since leaving here.

    B) Even if we concede that he is league average, you don't trade a league average SS for Jim Hoey. Trading someone for Jim Hoey is giving them away, and you don't just give away a league average SS, especially when you have no proven replacement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
    A) JJ Hardy has been better than league average. He's ranked 4th, 11th, and 7th (current season) among MLB SS (in WAR) since leaving here.

    B) Even if we concede that he is league average, you don't trade a league average SS for Jim Hoey. Trading someone for Jim Hoey is giving them away, and you don't just give away a league average SS, especially when you have no proven replacement.
    Just to clarify, he's definitely been better than league average since leaving, but in his one season w/Twins and the previous one with the Brewers he was roughly a league average SS - and that is the player they were evaluating, not the guy he's played like since.

    Second, to say they traded him straight up for Jim Hoey is a bit strong. He was a $5M player who had missed 50+ games in back to back seasons, and rather than let him walk for nothing they tried to salvage his value in the offseason. Getting something is generally better than getting nothing (although Hoey turned out to be nothing).

    I am by no means defending letting him go. I loved the signing and thought they bailed on him way too early. Just trying to see things from the front office's POV at the time. The lack of a legit replacement is pretty indefensible though, and makes the sequence all the more egregious.

  19. #19
    Speediest Moderator All-Star snepp's Avatar
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    Hoey didn't "turn out" to be nothing, he was nothing right from day one.
    "Maybe you could go grab a bat and ballÖ and learn something. Maybe you will get it."
    - Strib commenter educating the elitists on the value of RBI's

  20. #20
    Senior Member All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    This is purely speculation, but I've always laid the blame for Hardy on Gardy. I don't think Gardy wanted anything to do with him and that precipitated the trade.

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