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Thread: Article: Ron Gardenhire talks September roster

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    Owner All-Star Parker Hageman's Avatar
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    Article: Ron Gardenhire talks September roster


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    So, Gardy confirms it is about Ryan not being willing to eat salary.....can we put that part to bed yet, and just admit it? What conclusions you draw to the bigger picture about Ryan and money is a different discussion....

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    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    I think my question (and it is meant as an honest question) is how much value is there actually in a September callup. Yes, players are getting major league experience, but I wonder if it is not a somewhat diluted experience nonetheless. Other clubs will also be bringing up prospects, so that all the rosters will be somewhat diluted after Sept. 1. Doesn't that make it a little different than facing the "top 25" before 9/1? It kind of reminds me of spring training, where veterans and prospects often play at the same time. That also is valuable experience, but we've all learned to distrust ST numbers because of it.

    Yes, these games will in some cases have playoff implications, so the intensity will be higher than in spring training, and that also is worthwhile experiencing, and you will face some top-notch hitters/pitchers that you won't see in Triple-A. But has there actually been any studies done on players called up post-9/1 and those not and how it has actually affected their development (or failed to affect it)?

    For me, the value of these callups is for fans to get a glimpse of the future.

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    IP, that's what most people like KLAW say....but I'd guess Hendriks pitching here would be a bigger challenge than in AAA, wouldn't it? It might not "prove" anything, but I'd think it would have some useful data.
    Lighten up Francis....

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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoPilgrim View Post
    I think my question (and it is meant as an honest question) is how much value is there actually in a September callup. Yes, players are getting major league experience, but I wonder if it is not a somewhat diluted experience nonetheless. Other clubs will also be bringing up prospects, so that all the rosters will be somewhat diluted after Sept. 1. Doesn't that make it a little different than facing the "top 25" before 9/1? It kind of reminds me of spring training, where veterans and prospects often play at the same time. That also is valuable experience, but we've all learned to distrust ST numbers because of it.

    Yes, these games will in some cases have playoff implications, so the intensity will be higher than in spring training, and that also is worthwhile experiencing, and you will face some top-notch hitters/pitchers that you won't see in Triple-A. But has there actually been any studies done on players called up post-9/1 and those not and how it has actually affected their development (or failed to affect it)?

    For me, the value of these callups is for fans to get a glimpse of the future.
    The converse of your argument would be that a team would be just as well-served by NOT calling anyone up.

    Besides the chance to raise fiscal revenue by a few percent by selling more tickets after Labor Day (always a tough sell for a non-contender), what does it hurt for possible 2014 rookies to get a glimpse at big-league life- and all that that entails?

    The answer? Nothing.

    What does it help for individual development? Possibly something.

    "Somethings" like: familiarization to a tougher environment, added motivation to reach the pinnacle of your sport and, when you're 20-25 years old, every rep helps your development, even watered-down reps.
    Last edited by jokin; 08-20-2013 at 01:49 PM.

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    Senior Member All-Star IdahoPilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
    The converse of your argument would be that a team would be just as well-served by NOT calling anyone up.

    Besides the chance to raise fiscal revenue by a few percent by selling more tickets after Labor Day (always a tough sell for a non-contender), what does it hurt for possible 2014 rookies to get a glimpse at big-league life- and all that that entails?

    The answer? Nothing.

    What does it help for individual development? Possibly something.

    "Somethings" like: familiarization to a tougher environment, added motivation to reach the pinnacle of your sport and, when you're 20-25 years old, every rep helps your development, even watered-down reps.
    Fair enough. Good points. Especially for the Twins who have nothing else to play for. But if you're in a pennant race, does this still hold? I would want to play my best 25, at least until I've clinched.

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    Ryan is just affirming a "tough posture". It may seem to be wrong, but remember when the Twins were winning--and looking for upgrades--no one was cutting the Twins a break! So nuts to them. If they want Morneau, pay up, else finish your season with what they have and wonder "what if?" come November--just like we did!

    September callups are just what is implied--auditions. The Twins have many open jobs for 2014 so let people show what they have--or don't have!

    Auditions. I watched much of the Rock Cats game last night--brutal! It was clear to me why this team has a losing record. Lazy, half-ass play; situational baseball--unheard by this bunch! Sano apparently only wants to hit fastballs and he can be baited by FBs out-of-zone. Yeah, he needs more experience. A repeat at AA for a spell next year should do him some good--maybe shake his sweet smell of entitlement.

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    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    It is completely asinine that they don't want to just eat the rest of Morneau's salary for the rest of the season. They better plan on bringing him back then, instead of doing nothing and getting nothing.

    A September callup is going to mean a lot more for someone like Hendriks than Sano right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    So, Gardy confirms it is about Ryan not being willing to eat salary.....can we put that part to bed yet, and just admit it? What conclusions you draw to the bigger picture about Ryan and money is a different discussion....
    That's not exactly what he said.
    Papers...business papers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
    That's not exactly what he said.
    No, but it's hard to swallow the idea that money is the driving reason why he wasn't dealt. I would hope the manager on the team has a reasonable idea of what is going on, but at the very least you can conclude that within the organization the rumor is that he was kept because of a lack of trade interest due to salary.

    That's.....unsettling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    It is completely asinine that they don't want to just eat the rest of Morneau's salary for the rest of the season. They better plan on bringing him back then, instead of doing nothing and getting nothing.

    A September callup is going to mean a lot more for someone like Hendriks than Sano right now.
    While other teams seem much more willing to eat salary, I can't recall the Twins ever doing it, at least on the scale of $3M. My guess is that the return offered for eating salary isn't much anyway. While Morneau has said he wants to return, if he gets a similar offer to what the Twins offer from a team with a chance next year, it won't surprise me at all to see him in another uniform next year.

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    Senior Member Big-Leaguer jay's Avatar
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    I guess I'm reading that a bit differently also. It's not about the money, it's about actually getting something back of any value. Why pay $3M to not have Morneau on the team and get some no-chance A-level scrub in return?

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    This is Gardy talking about second-hand reports to a reporter. Hopefully there's more going on behind the scenes. Saying that teams don't want to take on the money might be leaving out the fact that teams haven't been willing to part with anyone interesting even if the Twins pay the money. Morneau hasn't exactly been tearing it up, you might have noticed. He's also been pretty public about wanting to stay- that may not hurt his trade value much, but it sure isn't helping it.

    Not saying that's what is happening, just saying there is a lot of assertion here about motivation based on a small scrap of perhaps partially-correct information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    No, but it's hard to swallow the idea that money is the driving reason why he wasn't dealt. I would hope the manager on the team has a reasonable idea of what is going on, but at the very least you can conclude that within the organization the rumor is that he was kept because of a lack of trade interest due to salary.

    That's.....unsettling.
    Could you instead swallow the reality that Morneau has no value? That seems to me to be the relevant point.

    The Twins aren't going to give him away for nothing.

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    That's not what Gardy said......he said it's about money.

    "but everything I’ve heard is that there is money involved and all that and other teams are not wanting to touch money and stuff like that.”

    Can someone explain how that sentence is not about money?

    As for the Sano thing, no surprise he's not coming up this year, is there?
    Lighten up Francis....

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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoPilgrim View Post
    Fair enough. Good points. Especially for the Twins who have nothing else to play for. But if you're in a pennant race, does this still hold? I would want to play my best 25, at least until I've clinched.
    Exactly, and with more teams in the playoff hunt than ever before (with the 2nd wild card), more teams will be playing all out, not using their expanded roster that much. A team like ours could have players benefit playing against those kind of teams

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    That's not what Gardy said......he said it's about money.

    "but everything I’ve heard is that there is money involved and all that and other teams are not wanting to touch money and stuff like that.”

    Can someone explain how that sentence is not about money?
    He said it's about money for other teams. That's inferring that the Twins will have to eat Morneau's salary in order to trade him, but it doesn't say anywhere they aren't willing to do that.

    The problem is likely that other teams aren't offering anything of value in return for that, not that the Twins won't do it... but that's not for certain either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    That's not what Gardy said......he said it's about money.

    "but everything I’ve heard is that there is money involved and all that and other teams are not wanting to touch money and stuff like that.”

    Can someone explain how that sentence is not about money?

    As for the Sano thing, no surprise he's not coming up this year, is there?
    I would consider the next paragraph for a more accurate assessment of why Morneau hasn't been traded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoPilgrim View Post
    I think my question (and it is meant as an honest question) is how much value is there actually in a September callup. Yes, players are getting major league experience, but I wonder if it is not a somewhat diluted experience nonetheless. Other clubs will also be bringing up prospects, so that all the rosters will be somewhat diluted after Sept. 1. Doesn't that make it a little different than facing the "top 25" before 9/1? It kind of reminds me of spring training, where veterans and prospects often play at the same time. That also is valuable experience, but we've all learned to distrust ST numbers because of it.

    Yes, these games will in some cases have playoff implications, so the intensity will be higher than in spring training, and that also is worthwhile experiencing, and you will face some top-notch hitters/pitchers that you won't see in Triple-A. But has there actually been any studies done on players called up post-9/1 and those not and how it has actually affected their development (or failed to affect it)?

    For me, the value of these callups is for fans to get a glimpse of the future.
    Very true, which is what I used to try to caution against getting too excited over Parmelee during his scorching Sept. a couple of years ago.
    It should be more about getting them some MLB experience, IMO, not necessarily drawing any conclusions from the results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    Exactly, and with more teams in the playoff hunt than ever before (with the 2nd wild card), more teams will be playing all out, not using their expanded roster that much. A team like ours could have players benefit playing against those kind of teams
    Conversely, long baseball tradition is that the non-contenders must field at least a representative lineup when facing contenders. Nobody wants to lose a close pennant (er, wild card) race because your rival played the Twins and swept them while facing no-names. This then limits the number of September call-ups you can usefully put into games.

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