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Thread: Souhan: Twins Must Pay For Pitching

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Johan might retire rather than start over at the bottom with a minimal deal. If it is a competition/center stage kind of thing he would have to have howie's well documented belief in the prospects (and get to lead the parade) to sign here.
    I agree with your take on years for Ervin Santana and Hughes and I also think Chargois still has a decent shot.

    However, I don't think Johan Santana would have actually had the surgery if he wasn't going to attempt a comeback. I'd still be interested in him as the 2014 Zumaya/Harden flier.

  2. #22
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    Ervin Santana (5year 75Million) may get the biggest deal of any FA pitcher. Garza has lost himself a lot of money with his performance this year. Garza wouldn't even consider coming back to MN.

    I would love to see the Twins splurge in FA this year, but it won't happen. I agree that Gibson (#2), Correia (#3) will be automatically be given rotation spots. I would love to see a bounce back from Worley (#4) as well. The last two would go to Albers or Diamond (#5). I would most like to see the Twins spend big on Ubaldo Jimenez. Market will likely be around 4-5 years and a 48-60 Million deal. I think the Twins need to 5 years and 65 to land him. He has the most upside of any FA pitcher and knows the central division. Kazmir on a 2 year deal possibly (injury history).

    Offensively, Mike Napoli at 1B on a 2yr/$28m deal. He will handle 1B and also do some DH'ing. Shin-Soo Choo as our CF and leadoff hitter for 5 years and $75 million. He will slide to a corner spot and bat in the two hole once Buxton arrives. That's $42 in three players that substantially upgrades our offense provides a potential front line starter.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siehbiscuit View Post
    Ervin Santana (5year 75Million) may get the biggest deal of any FA pitcher. Garza has lost himself a lot of money with his performance this year. Garza wouldn't even consider coming back to MN.

    I would love to see the Twins splurge in FA this year, but it won't happen. I agree that Gibson (#2), Correia (#3) will be automatically be given rotation spots. I would love to see a bounce back from Worley (#4) as well. The last two would go to Albers or Diamond (#5). I would most like to see the Twins spend big on Ubaldo Jimenez. Market will likely be around 4-5 years and a 48-60 Million deal. I think the Twins need to 5 years and 65 to land him. He has the most upside of any FA pitcher and knows the central division. Kazmir on a 2 year deal possibly (injury history).

    Offensively, Mike Napoli at 1B on a 2yr/$28m deal. He will handle 1B and also do some DH'ing. Shin-Soo Choo as our CF and leadoff hitter for 5 years and $75 million. He will slide to a corner spot and bat in the two hole once Buxton arrives. That's $42 in three players that substantially upgrades our offense provides a potential front line starter.
    Like your ideas, but can't see spending money on an outfielder. Arcia, Buxton, Hicks, and Presly will be more than adequate. Spend the money on starting pitchers.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boom Boom View Post
    Souhan could have written this article in September of 2011 or 2012, dragged it out of mothballs, changed the date and a few relevant player names, and reposted it.
    The same could be said for like 10-20% of the articles posted at TD. "What went wrong this year" "What to do this offseason after a terrible season" "When's the right time to move Mauer to first?" "Fire Gardy" "Time for a new front office" "Why is payroll shrinking" "Plouffe is really frustrating"

    Plenty of recurring themes when the team is awful and doesn't appear to be doing much about it, sadly.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jm3319 View Post
    The same could be said for like 10-20% of the articles posted at TD. "What went wrong this year" "What to do this offseason after a terrible season" "When's the right time to move Mauer to first?" "Fire Gardy" "Time for a new front office" "Why is payroll shrinking" "Plouffe is really frustrating"
    Its almost as if we're either on something or onto something here

  6. #26
    When I first saw the title of the article I thought, DARN right they should pay. Look at what they've done! Punish them! Then I realized that it was referring to money. HAHA

  7. #27
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    MLB Trade Rumors expects 3/39 for Jimenez, 2/24 for Arroyo, and 2/17 for Feldman. 5/65 for Jimenez seems to be pretty out there . . .

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Wahl View Post
    MLB Trade Rumors expects 3/39 for Jimenez, 2/24 for Arroyo, and 2/17 for Feldman. 5/65 for Jimenez seems to be pretty out there . . .
    Before making predictions you should have all of the data. Jimenez has been impressive after a rough start to the season. If Cleveland makes the playoffs and Jimenez carries them to the championship series performing at a high level somebody is going to give him a qualifying offer and somebody probably will plunk down a 5/65.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by old nurse View Post
    Before making predictions you should have all of the data. Jimenez has been impressive after a rough start to the season. If Cleveland makes the playoffs and Jimenez carries them to the championship series performing at a high level somebody is going to give him a qualifying offer and somebody probably will plunk down a 5/65.
    Can a player who turns down a player option get a qualified offer? I have no idea. If not, while I still can't see him getting 5/56, I could see him getting more than mlbtraderumors guess. With the new draft rules teams will pay a little extra not to lose a pick.

  10. #30
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    He will certainly get a qualifying offer which he may accept. He would be gambling on having a second strong season by accepting and larger contract in free agency.

    The Twins will have to beat the market by offering more years or dollars. I would prefer they increase the dollars perhaps to 48 for 3 years. I can't see him retaining his velocity for four more years (or even 3), but I hope they can get two good years and have him at the back of the rotation in year 3.

    All pitchers are a risky proposition as they age. In Ubaldo's case even riskier with his poor pitching the previous two years and lack of control to balance any loss in velocity.

  11. #31
    Senior Member All-Star Shane Wahl's Avatar
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    Kazmir MLBTR estimate 2/16.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by howieramone View Post
    Like your ideas, but can't see spending money on an outfielder. Arcia, Buxton, Hicks, and Presly will be more than adequate. Spend the money on starting pitchers.
    I agree on the starting pitching, but Buxton won't be up to start the season. Pressley may be better as a fourth outfielder and Hicks, well, doesn't looks like he deserves to be penciled in next year until he proves he's ready. Hammer looks like he'll be a DH. So, if they can get a cheap slugging OF and don't see value in SP I'd have no problem with them spending some money there.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    I agree on the starting pitching, but Buxton won't be up to start the season. Pressley may be better as a fourth outfielder and Hicks, well, doesn't looks like he deserves to be penciled in next year until he proves he's ready. Hammer looks like he'll be a DH. So, if they can get a cheap slugging OF and don't see value in SP I'd have no problem with them spending some money there.
    Absolutely! There is no justification for claiming an OF with Arcia, (Buxton in 12 months at the earliest), Hicks, Presly, and (maybe) Willingham will be anything but below average next year. The Twins need someone who can hit and play satisfactory defense. Delmon II in the OF doesn't work! Presley is a back-up, Hicks is a -up, and Willingham can't play defense and (hopefully) will be gone by August '14.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    I agree on the starting pitching, but Buxton won't be up to start the season. Pressley may be better as a fourth outfielder and Hicks, well, doesn't looks like he deserves to be penciled in next year until he proves he's ready. Hammer looks like he'll be a DH. So, if they can get a cheap slugging OF and don't see value in SP I'd have no problem with them spending some money there.
    The task this winter is to add 2 starting pitchers better than Corriea and Gibson. This should be doable. If the task were to add 2 front end starters, when there may only be 50-60 1's and 2's in all of baseball, the task gets much more difficult. But, I wouldn't be surprised if he added another piece somewhere else. A lot of other teams are in the heavy rebuild mode, so I'm guessing this winter will be fairly active.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwak View Post
    Absolutely! There is no justification for claiming an OF with Arcia, (Buxton in 12 months at the earliest), Hicks, Presly, and (maybe) Willingham will be anything but below average next year. The Twins need someone who can hit and play satisfactory defense. Delmon II in the OF doesn't work! Presley is a back-up, Hicks is a -up, and Willingham can't play defense and (hopefully) will be gone by August '14.
    I don't believe too many people are losing sleep knowing Arcia, Buxton, Hicks, Presly, and possibly even Rosario will be maning the outfield in the not too distant future. The Twins have suitable odd and ends, or if need be can find others until the permanent solution arrives, sooner rather than later.
    Last edited by howieramone; 09-21-2013 at 09:09 PM.

  16. #36
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    I wanna make sure I get the sentiment some seem to have. We've had a team that's gonna have three consecutive seasons of losing 90 or more games...and it's nobody's fault? Not ownerships fault, not the GM, not the field manager, not scouting, not developing?

    Are we to believe the GM did the best he could to put a competitor out there, and it just didn't work out? If so, why didn't it? Is it because the manager couldn't get these pieces to work? No? Why isn't it that? If it's not that, is it because we want to say he couldn't do it with so little talent? And if that's why we can't blame him because he had so little talent to work with, doesn't it go back to the person responsible for talent on the club again?

    This ship just went off course and continues to stay off course just out of the blue and for no reason whatsoever? No one is to blame? From 94 wins to the carper for three seasons straight with a another season (at least) likely, and no one is to blame.

    BTW, people keep saying we are rebuilding. What are we doing that other teams, who aren't in rebuilding mode, AREN'T doing? We're drafting...everyone drafts. We're signing international talent, so is everyone else. Aren't we just waiting and praying to the Gods that a seriously higher than normal percentage of our prospects end up above average of better? We did the two trades...the Span and Revere ones...but besides that, what exactly are we doing differently from teams that retool or are right in the thick of things?
    Last edited by ThePuck; 09-22-2013 at 11:14 AM.
    Just remember: You put the lime IN the coconut. Only THEN, can you drink it all up.

  17. #37
    Senior Member All-Star YourHouseIsMyHouse's Avatar
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    Priority #1 is grabbing Tanaka. I'd lock up Kazmir to a 2 year deal in addition and take a flyer on Phil Hughes for a year+option. 3 pitchers who have some good upside for us. Upside is what we need because we have none.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePuck View Post
    I wanna make sure I get the sentiment some seem to have. We've had a team that's gonna have three consecutive seasons of losing 90 or more games...and it's nobody's fault? Not ownerships fault, not the GM, not the field manager, not scouting, not developing?

    Are we to believe the GM did the best he could to put a competitor out there, and it just didn't work out? If so, why didn't it? Is it because the manager couldn't get these pieces to work? No? Why isn't it that? If it's not that, is it because we want to say he couldn't do it with so little talent? And if that's why we can't blame him because he had so little talent to work with, doesn't it go back to the person responsible for talent on the club again?

    This ship just went off course and continues to stay off course just out of the blue and for no reason whatsoever? No one is to blame? From 94 wins to the carper for three seasons straight with a another season (at least) likely, and no one is to blame.

    BTW, people keep saying we are rebuilding. What are we doing that other teams, who aren't in rebuilding mode, AREN'T doing? We're drafting...everyone drafts. We're signing international talent, so is everyone else. Aren't we just waiting and praying to the Gods that a seriously higher than normal percentage of our prospects end up above average of better? We did the two trades...the Span and Revere ones...but besides that, what exactly are we doing differently from teams that retool or are right in the thick of things?
    No, there is no one person.
    The owner runs the team like a business.
    The scouting department had not found enough talent. Maybe they made bad choices, maybe the one who had the right talent pegged didn't argue hard enough.
    The development people did not develop the talent they had to something better than what the talent could be.
    The GM made poor trades, did not sign the right free agents, did not pick up even slightly better marginal talent when it was available.
    Even the fans are to blame. When the team was winning in the dome, it still had plenty of capacity for more fans. Plenty of blame to go around, just not one person to hang in effigy.

  19. #39
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    So much for a culture of accountability......
    Lighten up Francis....

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike wants wins View Post
    So much for a culture of accountability......
    It's everyone's fault so it's no one's person's fault and so everyone gets defended...as if they weren't even part of the problem...and it continues.
    Just remember: You put the lime IN the coconut. Only THEN, can you drink it all up.

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