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  1. #21
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
    Handful? Did you read the article, no I guess. It's an overwhelming majority. You seem to be with the commissioner's absurd criteria that if we can find one person offended, we must halt everything and listen. That is a recipe for censorship and paralysis in public discourse.

    "And even though an Annenberg Public Policy Center poll found that 90 percent of Native Americans were not offended by the Redskins name, and even though linguists say the "redskins" word was first used by Native Americans themselves, and even though nobody on the Blackfeet side of my wife's family has ever had someone insult them with the word "redskin," it doesn't matter. There's no stopping a wave of PC-ness when it gets rolling."

    Nailed it.
    Native Americans are welcome to keep using it then. It doesn't make it appropriate as a team name.

    Since when does the right thing to do depend on the person wronged feeling wronged?

  2. #22
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Well, let's look at that study.

    This report deals with interviewing conducted from Oct. 7, 2003, through September 20, 2004. In that

    period 65,047 adults were interviewed, of whom 768 identified themselves as Indians or Native Americans.
    Yup, a survey of nearly 800 people! In which, they actually targeted some 65,000 adults! Ha! If the goal was to survey Native American views of the offensive nature of the name Redskin, I imagine there are more credible methods of obtaining such information.
    Last edited by PseudoSABR; 09-24-2013 at 11:42 PM.

  3. #23
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    In my experience, the people actually living on reservations throughout the country are pretty offended by all kinds of names referring to their people--whether it's Indian, Native American, American Indian, or Redskin--so many find any catch all term other than their tribal name totally offensive. As if the Dine' people of Arizona (what we call the Spanish term Navajo) are really much like the Ojibwe people of the midwest (which are often referred to the anglicized chippewa).

    I'd bet that the people contending that so few are offended have done little to no research (much less thorough reading) to defend their beliefs.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer biggentleben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    In my experience, the people actually living on reservations throughout the country are pretty offended by all kinds of names referring to their people--whether it's Indian, Native American, American Indian, or Redskin--so many find any catch all term other than their tribal name totally offensive. As if the Dine' people of Arizona (what we call the Spanish term Navajo) are really much like the Ojibwe people of the midwest (which are often referred to the anglicized chippewa).

    I'd bet that the people contending that so few are offended have done little to no research (much less thorough reading) to defend their beliefs.
    My experience on many reservations and working with a lot of Native Americans in jobs I've held has the Braves, Chiefs, Raiders, and Lakers as the top 4 teams on reservations in popularity.
    Staff Writer for Tomahawktake.com, come check it out!

  5. #25
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biggentleben View Post
    My experience on many reservations and working with a lot of Native Americans in jobs I've held has the Braves, Chiefs, Raiders, and Lakers as the top 4 teams on reservations in popularity.
    I don't want to protract this argument out any further, but I don't think it's any surprise that Cheifs and Braves are more popular than Redskins and Indians.
    Last edited by PseudoSABR; 09-25-2013 at 05:39 PM.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer biggentleben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    I don't want to protract this argument out any further, but I don't think it's any surprise that Cheifs and Braves are more popular than Redskins and Indians.
    Certainly, but they all tend to get lumped one in the same. I think that's the significant issue. There doesn't seem to be a difference in many people's eyes between a logo/name intended to honor Native tribes and one utilizing a slang.
    Staff Writer for Tomahawktake.com, come check it out!

  7. #27
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biggentleben View Post
    Certainly, but they all tend to get lumped one in the same. I think that's the significant issue. There doesn't seem to be a difference in many people's eyes between a logo/name intended to honor Native tribes and one utilizing a slang.
    I think that's a fair point, and part of why it's difficult to get actual traction on this issue.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Triple-A
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornhead View Post
    The push for change comes primarily from white Leftists with an insatiable appetite for uncovering these "offenses" and transforming society to meet their vision. The resulting victim groups created can often be manipulated or solidified into thinking the Left serves to protect them from the oppressive desires of the Right.
    How about those 700+ demonstrators outside the Metrodome tonight? You should've been there to tell them how you feel.

  9. #29

    Where do you stand on the "Redskins"

    I apologize if this is too unrelated to Minnesota for this site but I've seen a lot reported recently on whether or not to change the name of the Washington Redskins due to the derogatory origins of the word and I wanted to state where I stand, and also see what other people thought in what I consider a safer environment than the nfl.com forum.

    I will carefully state that I do not think the name should be taken offensively and therefore does not need to be changed. There is a common theme amongst NFL teams that their name is always taken from something that is meant to be powerful or ferocious (i.e. Bears, Lions, Vikings, Jets, Chargers, Broncos), or important (Packers, Patriots, Steelers). Knowing this, I can't imagine a name being chosen with cruel or mocking intentions and thus have to derive that Native Americans could fit in either category of naming and that "redskins" was a product of the periods common terminology. Yes the word had negative connotation at the time but I will take a page from South Park to illustrate my feelings on the word today.

    South Park addressed an issue that I struggle with frequently in how the meaning of words can change. South Park uses a different term as illustration but my feelings towards the term "redskin" are similar. I can't visualize anybody using the term "redskin" as a racial slur. In my mind, redskin applies to the color of their uniforms. That might sound silly but when somebody says "redskin" I don't think of an actual person, I think of a football teams maroon jersey.

    That's my piece and I'd like to know how others feel.

  10. #30
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    There is a whole thread telling you how people feel, many of those posts quite effectively derail the ideas you posted.

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  12. #31
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twins best friend View Post
    I can't visualize anybody using the term "redskin" as a racial slur.
    Among the various assumptions in your post, this one is maybe easiest to test, if you feel up to a visit to the Rez. Try it and see what sort of reactions you get.

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  14. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by ashburyjohn View Post
    Try it and see what sort of reactions you get.
    Maybe I'm being naive but what I'm saying is that I wouldn't think that somebody would actually do that. I'm not disputing when used in that way the word is offensive but I don't feel like that is its use anymore.

  15. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    There is a whole thread telling you how people feel, many of those posts quite effectively derail the ideas you posted.
    My post was originally a new thread because I was unaware this thread existed. I scrolled through trying to see if there was one already started but I obviously missed this one. Somebody was kind enough to move the post here for me.

  16. #34
    Twins News Team All-Star TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twins best friend View Post
    My post was originally a new thread because I was unaware this thread existed. I scrolled through trying to see if there was one already started but I obviously missed this one. Somebody was kind enough to move the post here for me.
    Then there are a lot of responses here. There was also a thread in the General Baseball thread on this subject as well. I'd link but not able to do so conveniently at the moment.

  17. #35
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    In short, you can't use yourself as a template for what other people should find offensive.

    That the term was at any time a slur that dehumanized a group of people should compel our better selves to make a change. It's only the senseless, yet traditional, fear of change that motivates those who rally against it.
    Last edited by PseudoSABR; 12-02-2013 at 05:29 PM.

  18. #36
    Senior Member Big-Leaguer biggentleben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Then there are a lot of responses here. There was also a thread in the General Baseball thread on this subject as well. I'd link but not able to do so conveniently at the moment.
    Can you, however, link the thread INCONVENIENTLY? That's what I'd pay good money to see!
    Staff Writer for Tomahawktake.com, come check it out!

  19. #37
    Twins Moderator MVP ashburyjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biggentleben View Post
    Can you, however, link the thread INCONVENIENTLY? That's what I'd pay good money to see!
    Possibly you are thinking of this thread:

    C l e v e l a n d - p h a s i n g - o u t - t h e i r - m a s c o t

    I have placed the link as inconveniently as I could, with a few moments' effort.

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  21. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoSABR View Post
    That the term was at any time a slur that dehumanized a group of people should compel our better selves to make a change. It's only the senseless, yet traditional, fear of change that motivates those who rally against change.
    If the name of the redskins is changed it won't upset me. I post because I think it's an interesting topic. Wouldn't it be mean more if we, as humans, instead could adapt a word with cruel intentions rather than hide from it? To say we understand what this used to be but no longer accept that definiton? I sippose a similar argument can be made for eliminating the word but I stand by my approach for the moment.

  22. #39
    Twins News Team All-Star PseudoSABR's Avatar
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    No one's hiding from the term. But to use it as mascot for a team as nationally prominent as Washington and the NFL are spotlights and celebrates the slur.

  23. #40
    Owner MVP Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornhead View Post
    The author mentioned the Fighting Irish among the team names that should be on the hit list. The use of that mascot is far more cartoonish.
    Ugh. I hate this analogy. Notre Dame was/is a largely Irish school. The name was created because they were, you know, the Fighting Irish. As in actually of Irish descent.

    And if you can't see the difference between that and the Washington Redskins, well, so be it... But it seems so painfully obvious that I don't know how anyone makes that analogy without feeling dirty afterward.

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